If you’d like to register with an NHS dentist in all of the Somerset area you’re out of luck.

Urmstongran

Blair obviously didn’t ‘like’ them either kitty!

Blair "reformed" the GP payments system, resulting in a money oriented GP service which fails the needs of patients but amazingly overlooked the separately funded dental sector.

As a result there was no money left for the dentists so a hotch-potch private/public funding model was cobbled together in a panic.

The result gas been to make NHS dentistry unrewarding.
The health system in the UK is broken. Completely - but no government is brave enough to face down the NHS unions and deliver real change.

We're being held hostage to a Soviet style "take what you're given" health service with the difference that we're paying top rates for it.

In what way are the unions hindering change? Specific examples rather than wild claims please!

PS. I remember being very satisfied with dentistry and other health services under Blair.

Is this just another of your unsubstantiated accusations?

I've been searching for some concrete evidence about some of the claims which have been made on this thread, but haven't found any, so it's not worth paying attention to them.

Urmstongran

Blair obviously didn’t ‘like’ them either kitty!

Blair "reformed" the GP payments system, resulting in a money oriented GP service which fails the needs of patients but amazingly overlooked the separately funded dental sector.

As a result there was no money left for the dentists so a hotch-potch private/public funding model was cobbled together in a panic.

The result gas been to make NHS dentistry unrewarding.
The health system in the UK is broken. Completely - but no government is brave enough to face down the NHS unions and deliver real change.

We're being held hostage to a Soviet style "take what you're given" health service with the difference that we're paying top rates for it.

The waiting lists in 1986 were so long, I had to pay for an urgent hysterectomy!

Patient satisfaction with the NHS was higher than it was before, and has been since, under Blair.

1971 casdon.

Of course, in the mix, the Dentist's 'contract' has been changed on a regular (or irregular!!) basis.

The Doctors and Dentists Review Body was established in the 1970s as far as I recall (many moons ago I worked for the Family Practitioner Committee), so it was already in place well before Agenda for Change came into play in the 1990s, albeit the constitution kept being amended. There are review bodies for all NHS contractor professions, and it would be fair to say that they have all become increasingly disgruntled with their settlements over the past 40 years or so.

Doctors and Dentists had their renumeration decided at the same time by the same review body.

The evidence for my assertion, growstuff, was listening to my hardworking, totally nhs, dentist husband swear every time the government wriggled their way out of honouring the recommendations of the review body.

And Labour were generally worse.

Agenda for Change didn’t cover doctors and dentists. I have clarified that fact for Urmstongran previously. kittylester is correct, there is a separate review body arrangement for doctors, and for dentists and opticians, and retail pharmacists.

kittylester

I'm talking about the Doctors and Dentist's review body who advise the government on the amount their pay should rise.

This is a thread about NHS dentistry.

I realise that, but I noticed "Agenda for Change" had been mentioned.

I would still be interested in some evidence for your assertion.

I'm talking about the Doctors and Dentist's review body who advise the government on the amount their pay should rise.

This is a thread about NHS dentistry.

kittylester

*growstuff*. No government for the past 40 years has honoured the pay body review recommendations for Dental Surgeons completely. But Labour have been worse than the Tories for ignoring them.

Would it be possible for you to be more specific?

Are you only talking about dentistry?

PS. How does this compare with pay body reviews for teachers and social workers, for example?

growstuff. No government for the past 40 years has honoured the pay body review recommendations for Dental Surgeons completely. But Labour have been worse than the Tories for ignoring them.

By the time Blair was finished with us, all that had gone. Is there no end to the damage he wreaked on us all? ‘Agenda for Change’ has a lot to answer for in my humble.

What absolute nonsense!

kittylester

There should be a core service on the NHS. Which is pretty well how it is going.

NHS dentistry hasn't really benefitted under any government. Patient charges were introduced almost immediately.

You are spot on urms - but who dares to say that.

Who dares say what?

What do you mean by core services?

Urmstongran

I remember that before Blair we all had access to NHS dentistry and had no problems getting a GP appointment or or a home visit, even out of hours, by a GP from your surgery.

By the time Blair was finished with us, all that had gone. Is there no end to the damage he wreaked on us all? ‘Agenda for Change’ has a lot to answer for in my humble.

I remember being able to see an NHS dentist and get a GP appointment long after Blair. The rot accelerated after the Health and Social Care Act 2012.

There should be a core service on the NHS. Which is pretty well how it is going.

NHS dentistry hasn't really benefitted under any government. Patient charges were introduced almost immediately.

You are spot on urms - but who dares to say that.

kittylester

Thank you, i know I am right casdon. And, as dh said 45 years ago, stealthy privatisation has been on the cards since before then by all governments.

And, in fact, Labour governments have been by far the worst for ignoring review body recommendations.

Could you give some examples of that? Labour hasn't been in power for 12 years, so couldn't have done anything in that time. Which recommendations did Labour ignore?

To repeat my point. Labour haven’t been in power for 12 years. Tony Blair left office 14 years ago. Whatever the sins of the past, it’s ridiculous to try in any way to hang the problems of dentistry today on them. It’s also not generally true that they took less action as a result of review body recommendations. The NHS benefitted hugely from the care given to it during the last Labour government’s tenure.

But that’s not the point of this post, is it? We are talking about now. What should be done now to improve dental care for those who can’t afford to pay, in the current government’s tenure?

Actually I agree with you Casdon in that although Blair made a dog’s dinner of it all with AfC, yes, 12y of Cameron/Clegg/May and now Boris ought to have reversed some of this mess. But who will drink from the poisoned chalice? The NHS is a toxic muddle now. It needs root & branch reform. Probably cross-party agreement so that subsequent governments of whatever shade can just take it forward. I don’t think any of Europe ‘envies our NHS’. Third world countries, yes but that’s no recommendation.

And, in fact, Labour governments have been by far the worst for ignoring review body recommendations

That’s been the opinion of my dental friend too kitty.

Thanks Joseanne. I know nothing of private schools and was just speculating as to how the practice manages to offer NHS work when so many don't.
The general area is not affluent, but the immediate areas around the 2 private schools are more so. Both are mostly boarding I believe.
No-one else has offered any explanation!

Thank you, i know I am right casdon. And, as dh said 45 years ago, stealthy privatisation has been on the cards since before then by all governments.

And, in fact, Labour governments have been by far the worst for ignoring review body recommendations.

Casdon

kittylester

Casdon

Now you’re making me laugh Urmstongran. How long have the Tories been in power, is 12 years long enough to put right any ills of the last Labour Government? If not, what have the Tories been doing all this time?

If that was the only thing wrong maybe they could but,as I said, there has been a move towards privatising dentistry for at least the last 45 years.

Recommendations by review bodies have been consistently ignored and general dental surgeons don't have the clout of general medical practitioners.

Yes, you’re right kittylester, although it was never envisaged as a fully private system until the Tories came into power in 2010 - the Blair model was very watered down (and more dentist driven) compared with the current system, and working within the NHS was still feasible financially for those who wanted to. You’re also right about the relative lack of clout politically that dentists have compared with doctors.
However the point I was making to Urmstongran was how ridiculous it is to hang the blame on a Labour government (Tony Blair stopped being PM in 2008) when 12 years have passed since the Tories came into power, which is long enough for any bad decisions and policies to be righted if there’s a will.

Many people voted for Blair because they thought he might reverse some of the privatisation begun by Mrs Thatcher.

He didn't which was a great disappointment to many.
Water should never have been privatised.

kittylester

Casdon

Now you’re making me laugh Urmstongran. How long have the Tories been in power, is 12 years long enough to put right any ills of the last Labour Government? If not, what have the Tories been doing all this time?

If that was the only thing wrong maybe they could but,as I said, there has been a move towards privatising dentistry for at least the last 45 years.

Recommendations by review bodies have been consistently ignored and general dental surgeons don't have the clout of general medical practitioners.

Yes, you’re right kittylester, although it was never envisaged as a fully private system until the Tories came into power in 2010 - the Blair model was very watered down (and more dentist driven) compared with the current system, and working within the NHS was still feasible financially for those who wanted to. You’re also right about the relative lack of clout politically that dentists have compared with doctors.
However the point I was making to Urmstongran was how ridiculous it is to hang the blame on a Labour government (Tony Blair stopped being PM in 2008) when 12 years have passed since the Tories came into power, which is long enough for any bad decisions and policies to be righted if there’s a will.

Casdon

Now you’re making me laugh Urmstongran. How long have the Tories been in power, is 12 years long enough to put right any ills of the last Labour Government? If not, what have the Tories been doing all this time?

If that was the only thing wrong maybe they could but,as I said, there has been a move towards privatising dentistry for at least the last 45 years.

Recommendations by review bodies have been consistently ignored and general dental surgeons don't have the clout of general medical practitioners.

Just as an aside, years ago our family could not get an NHS dentist for love nor money. Husband and myself are both at NHS dentists miles away. Our children ended up at another different clinic. I would like to move to one nearer my home, but am terrified to move, incase I lose the dentist Ive got. This is in Scotland, where supposedly we all have marvellous services. I can assure people services here are just as bad as anywhere else, if not worse. It was ridiculous closing dentists and opticians during Lockdown, they are a medical necessity,just as much as any other medical treatment.My previous dentist retired, they had had enough. My new dentist tells me the backlog of patients is never- ending. I do feel very sorry for them.

That used to be called 'squatting' urms and was how quite a few practices began as dentists were paid for what they had done and didn't have to tender for predicted work and then worry about achieving it.