The loss of freedom of speech, of sidelining women and biology

Seen on Facebook with no mention of any topical parallel.

A woman travelling with a male companion might prefer to be in a mixed sex dorm, but when travelling alone to have a single-sex one. I know that I would hate to share sleeping space with strange (as in unknown) men, whether or not their 'feelings' told them they were women.

We also worry about the fact that female spaces exist for a reason, and if any man who says he is a woman can enter them, there is no point in their being there in the first place.

There could be a case for mixed-sex facilities e.g. many hostels now have mixed-sex dorms, clearly designated as such.

What is a problem, tho, is dorms (or anything else) designated as single-sex and which may turn to be mixed-sex because they accept anyone who claims to be the relevant sex.
This is the case for dorms in SYHA & YHA in the UK.

I have tried to engage civilly.

Me too, AussieNana.
You have clearly claimed that two opposite things are true.
You may believe they are not opposite, of course. I can't help that.

AussieNanna I think that many people agree with you that people who medically and surgically transition are a different category from those who simply 'identify' as the opposite sex based on 'feelings' about 'gender'.

Many of us are sympathetic to those who have surgically transitioned, and are supportive of their right to live as they choose. What we are unhappy with, however, is the concept of 'gender' and we worry that if things continue as they are, anyone who does not conform to stereotypes of acceptable behaviour for their sex group will be assumed to be 'in the wrong body'. We also worry about the fact that female spaces exist for a reason, and if any man who says he is a woman can enter them, there is no point in their being there in the first place. Then there is the issue of language, which is being changed to eradicate women as a sex class. Interestingly, the word 'man' is not being removed from official documents.

Sorry if I am wide of the mark here, but I get the impression that you are not a TRA, but someone who is sensitive to the needs of those who (for want of a better term) refer to as genuine transpeople. You are not alone in that on here, but it seems as though wires have got crossed somewhere.

Rosie51

AussieNanna

"But to what extent should we treat them as that sex AussieNanna? Isn't that the problem, when treating them as the sex they have chosen gives them access to women only spaces and has enabled them to unfairly compete against natal women in sport.'

I have said over and over that I agree physical sport should be an exception and that unfair advantage should not be allowed

Yes- if you are fully transitioned you have access to the spaces of the sex you have transitoned to (and no longer to that of your original sex) and this works for both men and women who have transitioned
There may be some exceptions to that - but I'm ok with that as a general principle

You really do need to define your definition of "fully transitioned" AussieNanna. My concern is you think conforming to an outdated stereotypical 'presentation' of a woman is sufficient. I have XX chromosomes, was observed female at birth (the vulva was a HUGE clue) but as I'm almost 100 % dressed in jeans and a tshirt I'm not especially feminine in my presentation. I suppose the 34GG bra size gives a bit of an indication, but my prowess at DIY rather contradicts that, and I can parallel park in a tiny space that DH (100% male) wouldn't even contemplate! Luckily my DH isn't into stereotypes and without embarrassment will abandon the driver's seat and say "you park it" ??
You have several times stated you think sports is an area where natal sex matters, but have expressed no opinion on hospital wards, prisons, refuges etc.
Are you happy that eg Jewesses and Muslim women may be excluded from some previously single sex areas because of the inclusion of males who Identify as women?

Your concern is misplaced.

No I do not think gender dysmorphia is about stereotypes like you describe at all

I have said already that there would need to be a definition of fully transitioned -I do not have an exact one but it would need to be far more than just saying you identify - it would be after having major medical and surgical changes

what I have said is that sport is an area where I accept there cannot be equal footing even after complete transitioning.

FarNorth

^yes we know they are still genetically the original sex but I consider transpeople to have in real life terms become the other sex and therefore we should treat them as that sex^

Okay AussieNana I get it now.
You engage in doublethink so that two completely opposing things can be true at the same time.

I have tried to engage civilly..

would appreciate same in return

No I do not engage in doublethink - accepting transpeople have in real life terms transitioned to the other sex is not doing that.

yes I think someone can be genetically male or female and have transitioned, in real life terms, to the other sex.

I'm actually feeling a little positive that this is just the beginning and once again common sense will prevail.

Let's hope there is a widespread outbreak of sanity on every aspect of trans ideology.

"World Athletics will re-examine their transgender guidelines at the end of the year after Sebastian Coe spoke in support of the hardline approach adopted by swimming’s governing body.

In the past week, FINA has voted that trans women who 'experienced any part of male puberty' can no longer enter female events - a marked departure from the prevailing stances of Olympic sports.

While World Athletics rules say a transgender athlete can compete if she has a testosterone level below 5 nmol/L continuously for a period of at least 12 months – six months longer than stipulated by their regulations around athletes with differences of sexual development (DSD) - Coe has been emphatic in his belief that ‘biology trumps gender’.

n giving his opinion on FINA’s position, Coe said: ‘We see an international federation asserting its primacy in setting rules, regulations and policies that are in the best interest of its sport. This is as it should be.

'We have always believed, and repeated constantly, that biology trumps gender and we will continue to review our regulations in line with this.’

When asked if WA would adopt a similar stance, Coe added: ‘We have always said our regulations in this area are a living document, specific to our sport and we will follow the science."

www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-10934773/World-Athletics-president-Sebastian-Coe-backs-FINAs-ruling-transgender-athletes-banned.html

?

It doesnt really matter who is ok with it to be honest. There are many women who arent and other people cant consent for them. There certainly are exceptions, for example transmen arent placed in Male prisons because the risk is of course just too great. But men can and are placed in womens prisons, it's just incoherent.

The BBC got rid of Stonewall but are this new lot any better or different?

twitter.com/thecriticmag/status/1537398214466338817?s=12

There doesn't appear to be any significant backlash about the increasing numbers of FtM transitioners. I wonder why? Could it be that transmen pose no threat to natal males physically, in sports, in positions of power, in social settings, in refuge settings? No surely it must be that males are intrinsically kinder, more accepting of difference.........

yes we know they are still genetically the original sex but I consider transpeople to have in real life terms become the other sex and therefore we should treat them as that sex

Okay AussieNana I get it now.
You engage in doublethink so that two completely opposing things can be true at the same time.

AussieNanna

"But to what extent should we treat them as that sex AussieNanna? Isn't that the problem, when treating them as the sex they have chosen gives them access to women only spaces and has enabled them to unfairly compete against natal women in sport.'

I have said over and over that I agree physical sport should be an exception and that unfair advantage should not be allowed

Yes- if you are fully transitioned you have access to the spaces of the sex you have transitoned to (and no longer to that of your original sex) and this works for both men and women who have transitioned
There may be some exceptions to that - but I'm ok with that as a general principle

You really do need to define your definition of "fully transitioned" AussieNanna. My concern is you think conforming to an outdated stereotypical 'presentation' of a woman is sufficient. I have XX chromosomes, was observed female at birth (the vulva was a HUGE clue) but as I'm almost 100 % dressed in jeans and a tshirt I'm not especially feminine in my presentation. I suppose the 34GG bra size gives a bit of an indication, but my prowess at DIY rather contradicts that, and I can parallel park in a tiny space that DH (100% male) wouldn't even contemplate! Luckily my DH isn't into stereotypes and without embarrassment will abandon the driver's seat and say "you park it" ??
You have several times stated you think sports is an area where natal sex matters, but have expressed no opinion on hospital wards, prisons, refuges etc.
Are you happy that eg Jewesses and Muslim women may be excluded from some previously single sex areas because of the inclusion of males who Identify as women?

"But to what extent should we treat them as that sex AussieNanna? Isn't that the problem, when treating them as the sex they have chosen gives them access to women only spaces and has enabled them to unfairly compete against natal women in sport.'

I have said over and over that I agree physical sport should be an exception and that unfair advantage should not be allowed

Yes- if you are fully transitioned you have access to the spaces of the sex you have transitoned to (and no longer to that of your original sex) and this works for both men and women who have transitioned
There may be some exceptions to that - but I'm ok with that as a general principle

FarNorth

AussieNana wrote -
And yes we know men and women can't genetically change - but if they have transitioned to the other sex we should treat them as that sex.

Although I recognise this would entail unfair advantage in physical sports in the men transitioned to women group so I agree with not allowing that.

No-one transitions to the other sex. They may make changes to their body or they may not. Either way, they are still the same sex.

Why are you more concerned about sport than about women losing privacy and dignity, and being at risk of harm in hospital wards or prison cells?

I disagree - people do transition to the other sex.

yes we know they are still genetically the original sex but I consider transpeople to have in real life terms become the other sex and therefore we should treat them as that sex - although I recognise the physical advantage this gives men who have transitioned to women in physical sports so I accept that should not be allowed.

I am not more concerned about sport - I am saying I recognise the physical advantage means that has to be an exception

I dont see women as losing privacy and dignity (nor men when women have transitioned - works both ways) and I think the risk of harm is greatly exagerated by some detractors - by far the majority of attacks on women (and other men) are by men as men.

Elegran

And if they look, sound,move, act and think exactly like the sex they once were, how do we know to treat them as the other sex?

What does that even mean? "Treat them as the other sex" ? It involves different things in different circumstances - employed for their intellect, they are the same as the other sex, but in a physical contest they are at a distinct advantage, in a bed in a maternity ward one biological sex will be completely absent, and in situations where the cultural norm is for the biological sexes to be separate, including them overturns the wishes of 99.9% of the population so that less than 1% can fulfil a fantasy.

well I dont think sexes think differently

If someone is looking , dressing etc the same as the sex they once were then they are not transitioned though

Oh dear I'm shocked by this.
Our oldest GD is a successful competitive swimmer and I mistakenly thought she had no threat from pseudo female swimmers. I was wrong obviously.
I don't know whether to ask her for her view - or say nowt and leave it to her - she's a very tough 19 yr. old.

Here is a link to the full Standing for Women event in Bristol on Sunday, 19 June 2022.

It is 2 hours long and in parts is quite noisy because of transactivists however it's worth persevering with it because there are many worthwhile things said by the women, a 12-year old girl, & a few men, who spoke.

youtu.be/6wOf0RtF-TQ

That should happen Smileless but I'm guessing the best they'll get is a limp apology, if that.

The 'records', though, have not only affected current athletes but will affect the achievements of women athletes in the future and should be erased.

Those women who competed against and lost to trans women should have their positions re assessed, so the 2nd is now 1st, 3rd is now 2nd and 4th is now 3rd.

All prize money should be returned and redistributed accordingly.

FarNorth

I hope they go further to remove the 'records' and 'achievements' of transwomen so that future women aren't challenging unrealistic results.
And that steps are taken to compensate women who lost out to men.

Great idea! Especially the unrealistic ‘world records’ aspect!

Glorianny

DiamondLily

Glorianny

Interesting but the Baroness is inaccurate and misleading on at least one of her statements
two nurses who told her they had lost their jobs because they had refused to say that trans women were the same as biological women.
For Emma, it was her call to arms.
'These young women did not have the funding or the contacts to go to an employment tribunal.
From Citizens Advice
You don't have to pay any fees to make an employment tribunal claim.
If you win, your employer won’t automatically have to pay your costs. If you lose, you don’t automatically have to pay your employer’s costs.

No objection to anyone campaigning for free speech but basing your claim on inaccuracies is never a good start.
And no one needs "contacts" anyone can Google it.

Perhaps they meant legal advice, expert advice, loss of earnings etc?

If that's what she meant she should have said so.
It isn't a good idea to start a campaign for free speech with misleading statements

I do t know what she meant. The CAB site is a bit ambiguous.

It says that you may have to pay costs, win or lose. And that you may not be required to pay costs, win or lose.

But, the article was about her work, not about costs with tribunals.

I hope they go further to remove the 'records' and 'achievements' of transwomen so that future women aren't challenging unrealistic results.
And that steps are taken to compensate women who lost out to men.