The loss of freedom of speech, of sidelining women and biology

FINA the governing body for elite swimming has just ruled that no-one who transitioned from male to female after puberty may compete in women's races

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10932219/Elite-swimming-rules-transgender-athletes-went-male-puberty-compete-races.html

DiamondLily

Glorianny

Interesting but the Baroness is inaccurate and misleading on at least one of her statements
two nurses who told her they had lost their jobs because they had refused to say that trans women were the same as biological women.
For Emma, it was her call to arms.
'These young women did not have the funding or the contacts to go to an employment tribunal.
From Citizens Advice
You don't have to pay any fees to make an employment tribunal claim.
If you win, your employer won’t automatically have to pay your costs. If you lose, you don’t automatically have to pay your employer’s costs.

No objection to anyone campaigning for free speech but basing your claim on inaccuracies is never a good start.
And no one needs "contacts" anyone can Google it.

Perhaps they meant legal advice, expert advice, loss of earnings etc?

If that's what she meant she should have said so.
It isn't a good idea to start a campaign for free speech with misleading statements

Doesn't alter the fact that they were faced with losing their jobs for stating the obvious, and a biological fact that trans women are not the same as biological women, which surely is the singular important focus of this case.

"From Citizens Advice
You don't have to pay any fees to make an employment tribunal claim.
If you win, your employer won’t automatically have to pay your costs. If you lose, you don’t automatically have to pay your employer’s costs."

Does that mean you may end up paying costs, even if you win?

"'These young women did not have the funding or the contacts to go to an employment tribunal." Perhaps they meant they didn't have the accurate information about getting a tribunal and funding it, the confidence to take on the stablishment, and the hope that their HR would back them and not the trans people who claimed they were "abused" when she said trans women were not the same as biological women.

AussieNana wrote -
And yes we know men and women can't genetically change - but if they have transitioned to the other sex we should treat them as that sex.

Although I recognise this would entail unfair advantage in physical sports in the men transitioned to women group so I agree with not allowing that.

No-one transitions to the other sex. They may make changes to their body or they may not. Either way, they are still the same sex.

Why are you more concerned about sport than about women losing privacy and dignity, and being at risk of harm in hospital wards or prison cells?

Glorianny

Interesting but the Baroness is inaccurate and misleading on at least one of her statements
two nurses who told her they had lost their jobs because they had refused to say that trans women were the same as biological women.
For Emma, it was her call to arms.
'These young women did not have the funding or the contacts to go to an employment tribunal.
From Citizens Advice
You don't have to pay any fees to make an employment tribunal claim.
If you win, your employer won’t automatically have to pay your costs. If you lose, you don’t automatically have to pay your employer’s costs.

No objection to anyone campaigning for free speech but basing your claim on inaccuracies is never a good start.
And no one needs "contacts" anyone can Google it.

Perhaps they meant legal advice, expert advice, loss of earnings etc?

Interesting but the Baroness is inaccurate and misleading on at least one of her statements
two nurses who told her they had lost their jobs because they had refused to say that trans women were the same as biological women.
For Emma, it was her call to arms.
'These young women did not have the funding or the contacts to go to an employment tribunal.
From Citizens Advice
You don't have to pay any fees to make an employment tribunal claim.
If you win, your employer won’t automatically have to pay your costs. If you lose, you don’t automatically have to pay your employer’s costs.

No objection to anyone campaigning for free speech but basing your claim on inaccuracies is never a good start.
And no one needs "contacts" anyone can Google it.

Baroness Nicholson, who has been championing the rights of biological women, has given an interview, to the DM, about her struggles and run ins with the activists:

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-10932167/Grown-men-pretending-dont-know-woman-wife-children-absurd.html

And if they look, sound,move, act and think exactly like the sex they once were, how do we know to treat them as the other sex?

What does that even mean? "Treat them as the other sex" ? It involves different things in different circumstances - employed for their intellect, they are the same as the other sex, but in a physical contest they are at a distinct advantage, in a bed in a maternity ward one biological sex will be completely absent, and in situations where the cultural norm is for the biological sexes to be separate, including them overturns the wishes of 99.9% of the population so that less than 1% can fulfil a fantasy.

If they aren't DiamondLily and I think you've made a good point, then trans activists should denounce them as they are damaging their cause and unless they do, they'll be seen as representing them.

But to what extent should we treat them as that sex AussieNanna? Isn't that the problem, when treating them as the sex they have chosen gives them access to women only spaces and has enabled them to unfairly compete against natal women in sport.

Galaxy

They are misogynists looking for a way to attack women. They have found the perfect cause.

I think you’re right.

They are misogynists looking for a way to attack women. They have found the perfect cause.

Looking at the film clips on this DM link, can anyone seriously think these "protestors" are genuine TW's?

They are just an anarchist organisation, determined to disrupt and bully people into "their" way of thinking.?

The "cause" could be anything.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10931901/Bristol-Womens-rights-activists-silenced-balaclava-clad-trans-rights-mob.html

Smileless2012

^Not just men becoming women but women becoming men^ but men can't become women, and women can't become men which is why there are so many problems when it comes to services which are segregated by sex, not gender.

Ok, segregated by sex then.

I think you knew perfectly well what I meant though

And yes we know men and women can't genetically change - but if they have transitioned to the other sex we should treat them as that sex.

Although I recognise this would entail unfair advantage in physical sports in the men transitioned to women group so I agree with not allowing that.

That recording is hauntingly beautiful and quite horrific at the same time Elegran. I had very little knowledge about the Castrati other than the absolute basic they were castrated at a very early age to conserve their vocal range. Having read more on the internet the history of it is both fascinating (in a horrible sense) and repellent. Poor, poor boys

Better sound in this version.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLjvfqnD0ws

Though it was late enough for a recording to exist of Alessandro Moreschi singing Ave Maria in 1902.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=14MH2E94um4

The castration of boy singers to preserve their high voices was stopped long ago.

Rosie51^No child should have their puberty blocked^
We do right to be concerned.
There are varying opinions about when a dog should be spayed because of the potential damage to their development. Strange they get more consideration than some children.

Doodledog

Rosie for Sports Minister .

That is by far the most sensible solution, and would protect children from abuse - more and more is coming out about the extent of child abuse in sport, and IMO allowing anyone under 12 to transition very definitely comes under that category.

Why thank you

I first typed 'terrified' but moderated it down to alarmed, but actually it's a horrifying concept to transition children.
There are young people in the USA who already show signs of osteoporosis from the blockers and cross sex hormones. The latest about the abuse suffered by young gymnasts is so worrying, and I'm sure that won't be the last sport to be exposed. There are obviously coaches who would stop at nothing on their glory hunt for success, and would happily encourage transition if they felt it would work.

Rosie for Sports Minister .

That is by far the most sensible solution, and would protect children from abuse - more and more is coming out about the extent of child abuse in sport, and IMO allowing anyone under 12 to transition very definitely comes under that category.

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/61853450
I'm pleased that males will be kept out of women's swimming, it's the only fair decision. I am alarmed though that as long as transition has been completed by age 12 then transwomen may compete against women. Surely this could encourage the transitioning of children? No child should have their puberty blocked, unless it's to delay precocious puberty, which is only ever done in extreme circumstances for the shortest time. I really feel they needed to say that nobody born male could ever compete against females. They need to address the open category immediately. There's a simple solution, two categories, female and open. Everybody gets to compete, and those allies who despite being female want to be fully inclusive can also enter the open category. Win win.

What proof is there that two years reduces male advantage any better than 12 months? absolutely none, since no scientific study has ever been carried out. As usual it's ideas plucked from the air. No amount of testosterone suppression will shrink the heart, lung capacity or bone length and density of a body that has had the advantage of a male puberty. The 'inverted triangle' of the male skeletal frame with it's advantageous positioning of the hip/leg angle wouldn't change even if testosterone was reduced to typical female levels.
Of course when transmen start cleaning up podium places against natal men in sports there might be more thought given to unfairness..........
I found a link to a Wiki page that listed notable transmen athletes. Wow, transmen taking podium places, brilliant......er no. They had been successful women who only transitioned after their sporting careers ended. One was an East German who had been systematically doped on steroids from the age of 16 in that time of state endorsed cheating. The steroids had made her start to develop male characteristics even while competing.

Suzanne Moore today:

I am old and ugly enough to know male violence when I see it. So forget your slogans and your mantras or your inner spiritual gendered essence. I don’t have one as I am non-binary because I don’t accept that gender IS a binary.

Silence is lucrative but I will not be silent about men trying to stop women meeting, speaking, and thinking. For years this progressive misogyny has festered. In the name of “trans rights” you can now abuse women in public. You can wish them dead, call them fossils and dinosaurs and hope your Mum has something nice in the oven when you get home.

These two -bit radicals are full of rage at women. Some of them even are women and they just want to be “inclusive”. Their enemy are not those who harm and threaten trans people ie. violent men . No, their enemy is women. Women who think, who drink even (!) and who want to meet in single sex spaces. Or now any space at all. We are to be stopped . Raped. Threatened. Destroyed.

^Liberals sit on the fence doing the old “but there are extremists on both sides argument”. Really?
So, in the past few weeks while evidence mounts up that puberty blockers and surgery for young kids is not a panacea, that the Tavistock is at the centre of a medical scandal – see Janice Turner’s brilliant report in The Times:^

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/what-went-wrong-at-the-tavistock-clinic-for-trans-teenagers-v5cfcw77n

that even America is waking up to the harm being done in the name of “gender identity”, when various Sporting Bodies are starting to realise that lowering testosterone is not enough to make it fair for biological men to compete against biological women, when more and more detransitioners speak out about how unhappy they are, when sane individuals ask if it is right to medicalise and sterilise a generation of gay girls , something is shifting. All those who stood by and watched this happen or promoted it are nervy. When people are nervy, violence happens. Every survivor knows this deep down. Now we see that the so-called trans activists are now raging.