The loss of freedom of speech, of sidelining women and biology

Galaxy

No not particularly to you. Everyone has a line because it's a lie. You can only carry on with a lie for so long. Your line is sport, mine is prisons refuges etc.
The reference to short women is that you wouldnt put those restrictions on any other group of women, short women, women with blond hair, etc. Your line is there because they are men. We all know this.
It's not restrictions unless you think single sex spaces are by nature restrictive. It is quite feasible to offer mixed sex and single sex spaces alongside each other ( except prisons and sport I would say).

Well everyone has a line on most things - most issues have context and nuance.

I don't see anything as a lie though.

The reference to blond women etc makes no sense to me.

There are restrictions in sport based on other relevant things - for example age or weight
20 year olds can't compete in over 60's events.

Yes,non gender divided spaces for toilets etc would be ideal and some places have them.
But since that is not practical everywhere, you need some sort of plan on what to do.
I agreed with previous posters that some sort of official pass might be a good idea.

No not particularly to you. Everyone has a line because it's a lie. You can only carry on with a lie for so long. Your line is sport, mine is prisons refuges etc.
The reference to short women is that you wouldnt put those restrictions on any other group of women, short women, women with blond hair, etc. Your line is there because they are men. We all know this.
It's not restrictions unless you think single sex spaces are by nature restrictive. It is quite feasible to offer mixed sex and single sex spaces alongside each other ( except prisons and sport I would say).

Mollygo

You cannot seriously say you support men saying they have changed sex in order to access one thing, because you think that’s OK, but not access another because you don’t think it’s OK.
The hardest part of this, is that I have been told frequently on GN, that men who to all outward appearances and behaviour are women, have been accessing female toilets for years. They had no intention of causing harm or distress to females.
These selfish ‘today I’m a woman so I can do what I like or you’re transphobic’ males, whether in sport, or changing rooms or toilets, or female medical facilities are not only harming females, but also the aforementioned group of males.

Yes I am seriously saying that. Men or women.

As I guess were Elegran and the poster before her who suggested ID sort of passes to which I agreed.

Although I wouldn't say anyone fully transitions in order to do that. That is hardly why they transition.

One can have nuanced views on an issue

Galaxy

And that those who say no to some things are the good guys but those who say no to others are bigots.

Is that addressed to me?

I didnt say that.

Galaxy

But it's not coherent. You wouldnt say it about any other group of women. You wouldnt say short women cant be in womens sports but they can use womens changing rooms. You are saying that because they are men. There is a line for everyone that's the issue. Your line might be different to others but theres always a line. That's why it was and is impossibly unkind to pretend that transwomen are women.

Not getting the comparison to short women??

I am saying that about sports ( or at least gender divided sports) because the person would still have the strength and advantages of male biology.

I don't see it as unkind to accept transitioned people are treated as the gender they have transitioned to.

I agree with Elegran on the point that they cannot have every single aspect of life - that doesn't mean I think they should have no aspect of life.

So I also agreed with her that some sort of ID pass for fully transitioned people is an idea with merit.

And that those who say no to some things are the good guys but those who say no to others are bigots.

You cannot seriously say you support men saying they have changed sex in order to access one thing, because you think that’s OK, but not access another because you don’t think it’s OK.
The hardest part of this, is that I have been told frequently on GN, that men who to all outward appearances and behaviour are women, have been accessing female toilets for years. They had no intention of causing harm or distress to females.
These selfish ‘today I’m a woman so I can do what I like or you’re transphobic’ males, whether in sport, or changing rooms or toilets, or female medical facilities are not only harming females, but also the aforementioned group of males.

No I don't think that would be right Far North - but a person who decided this a week ago wouldn't be a fully transitioned person, would they?

But it's not coherent. You wouldnt say it about any other group of women. You wouldnt say short women cant be in womens sports but they can use womens changing rooms. You are saying that because they are men. There is a line for everyone that's the issue. Your line might be different to others but theres always a line. That's why it was and is impossibly unkind to pretend that transwomen are women.

Or AussieNana if you, or a female relative, were unfortunate enough to be in prison (perhaps because of a car accident, or a political protest) and your cellmate turns out to be a person who was in male prison last week but has now revealed his 'long-hidden' belief that he is a woman?

Would you perhaps be a little uneasy about that?

Chewbacca

^I would consider someone who had done so to now be a woman though, not a man (or vice versa)^

And how would you feel AussieNana if you had a daughter/grandaughter who was an athlete/cyclist/swimmer and who had practised and competed for years and years; steadily building up her strength and ability so that she was at competition level amongst her peers. Suddenly, a male comes along. He's been a competitor in the same field for years but not been very sucessful competing against other males. He's bigger, faster, stronger and more muscular than your daughter/grandaughter, or any of the other women in the competition - but he says he's now "a woman" and wants to compete against women. He beats your daughter/grandaughter and every other female competitory hands down in every single race - no contest. He's gone from 237th in a race as a male competitor to 1st as a female. Your daughter/grandaughter knows that, no matter how much she practices, no matter how much she tries, she cannot win against a biological male who has far more body mass, muscle strength, height or limb size than her or the other women. So what's the point of competing? A lifetime of competitive sport lost to a failed male athlete who, just because he can, says he's a woman. Fair?

No I don't think that is fair and I have not said otherwise.

I haven't said anything about sport.

My comment was about using facilities like toilets.

One can not agree with something, in this instance, sports competitions, and still agree with something else, in this case the suggestion of some sort of ID pass for people who are genetically one gender but have fully transitioned to the other.

When this point is raised with legislators, the answer is that the organisers of women's sports can choose to exclude trans women from competing..

But in how many sports has this been done? and why should it always be natural-born women who have to budge over or make other arrangements? The men who wish to be considered to be women are the ones who should be accepting that in some areas they just can't have every single aspect of women's lives altered to suit them - particularly those men who don't wish to alter anything at all about their own lives except the definition of them as men..

I would consider someone who had done so to now be a woman though, not a man (or vice versa)

And how would you feel AussieNana if you had a daughter/grandaughter who was an athlete/cyclist/swimmer and who had practised and competed for years and years; steadily building up her strength and ability so that she was at competition level amongst her peers. Suddenly, a male comes along. He's been a competitor in the same field for years but not been very sucessful competing against other males. He's bigger, faster, stronger and more muscular than your daughter/grandaughter, or any of the other women in the competition - but he says he's now "a woman" and wants to compete against women. He beats your daughter/grandaughter and every other female competitory hands down in every single race - no contest. He's gone from 237th in a race as a male competitor to 1st as a female. Your daughter/grandaughter knows that, no matter how much she practices, no matter how much she tries, she cannot win against a biological male who has far more body mass, muscle strength, height or limb size than her or the other women. So what's the point of competing? A lifetime of competitive sport lost to a failed male athlete who, just because he can, says he's a woman. Fair?

Nope it makes no difference I am afraid. Where we are now is because we were kind and said ok we know you arent women but ok. That decision directly led to where we are. Many women who have been raped, many women who need privacy do not want men in their spaces. They do not consent. We cant say yes on their behalf I am afraid.

A representative of the women's prison service who was giving evidence to the Holyrood committee spoke about a trans man who was admitted to a male prison. His female birth sex was sussed instantly by all the other prisoners and he had a hell of a time.

If they are surgically, physically and socially transitioned, (and their sexual orientation is to prefer males) - then biological males are physically and socially no problem in places where biological females expect to feel free of the attentions of men. Up until recently, that is what men who would rather be women have aimed for. The surgery is traumatic for them, but they considered it worthwhile.

The difficulties arise when men self-identify as women with no alteration to their bodies, their appearance, their sexual attraction to females, or their outlook, attitudes and behaviour. Despite whatever their internal feelings may be, they are still standard-issue men and have not magically become women . The updates to gender re-assignment laws urged by trans activists, which are being debated right now, remove all requirement to actually change anything. The internal feeling is all - no medical input, no diagnosis of gender dysphoria causing unbearable stress, no surgery, no hormones. No "passing" is needed, just a personal statement.

The result of this is the possible presence in women-only spaces - unchallenged - of unaltered men with a certificate that they are female, but with male bodies and libidos, who cannot be distinguished from the rest of the male population. There is no word of how the rest of the male population can be excluded without causing criminal offence to the trans ones.

The fact that some men may have issues with some other men presenting differently is not a problem that is up to women to solve. Wonen are not the mothers of the world.

I think we all know people transitioned to the other gender are still genetically their birth gender

I would consider someone who had done so to now be a woman though, not a man (or vice versa)

and I would think somebody surgically, physically and socially transitioned would find it problematic to use birth gender facilities - and other users would too.

Somebody appearing to be a man but who is genetically female entering the ladies change rooms for example - but by posters logic thats what they should do.
I dont think so.

I do agree that some sort of pass or something could be issued to people after transitioning to verify this.

Smileless2012

^If someone is genetically male, how can they be a woman?^ precisely Doodledog and I for one am fed up with the accusations that anyone who says they can't be, is transphobic.

Well put!

If someone is genetically male, how can they be a woman? precisely Doodledog and I for one am fed up with the accusations that anyone who says they can't be, is transphobic.

A card of some sort would work in practice in much the same way as a blue-badge disabled parking card, or an older-person's bus pass (or for that matter, a young person's bus pass) or as a membership card for a gym. Most of the time, the owner of the card wouldn't need it, but could produce it to show their eligibility to enter places to which entry is restricted. That doesn't "intrude into their privacy" any more than it intrudes into someone's privacy to show a card which reveals their age or their disability.

Something needs to be done to distinguish the possessor of a certificate of transition. Perhaps 1% of the male population of the country may have one of these certificates and legitimately (and peacefully and respectably) enter spaces reserved for women. But how can they be distinguished from the other 99% of the male population, who should not enter? And whose motives may at worst be criminal - or at the minimum, be "for a laugh"

The elephant in the room is that men enjoy the sight of women, and will go to a lot of trouble and expense to be where women are, especially if they are scantily dressed.
Women have centuries - millenia! - of experience of the effects of male penetration of places which should have been free from them.

Folklore is full of examples. In the Old Testament of the Bible, Susannah thought she was alone, bathing in a pool in the forest, but she was being watched from behind the bushes by a couple of "respected" elders of the community, who, when she lodged a complaint against them, accused her of flaunting her body to tempt them. In the traditional original fairytale, it wasn't just a kiss that wakened the unconscious Sleeping Beauty, it was a full-on rape. The wolf stalking Red Riding Hood on her visit to her grandmother wasn't hoping merely to eat her. In ancient Rome, the band of bachelor settlers organised a festival of games to bring people from the neighbouring Sabine towns. At a given signal they each grabbed one of the Sabine women, fought off their menfolk, and rode off with their captives.

Numerous accounts of student japes tell of infiltrating the girls' dorms, for to enjoy the outrage of the duennas. There have been similar recent forays into women-only spaces by young men claiming falsely to be trans (and getting abject apologies from the management for the way a member of staff treated their claims)

The lesson that should be taken from these is that it is not difficult, in an atmosphere where trans people are the ones who automatically receive the benefit of any doubt, and where there is no requirement for them to prove their entitlement for anyone at all to claim to be "really a woman" and therefore entitled to be treated as one without question even if they are 6 ft 2, broad-shouldered, narrow-hipped and muscular, bald and bearded, with a prominent Adam's apple, a voice deeper than Paul Robeson, and an obvious interest in female talent.

If someone is genetically male, how can they be a woman?

They can conform to female gender stereotypes (and if enough of them do so then eventually the stereotypes will loosen). They can impersonate women, again, drawing on gender stereotypes to do so, and if enough of them do so, eventually those stereotypes will loosen.

If, on the other hand, they insist that by conforming to those stereotypes they become women (impossible, as their genetics make them male) then the stereotypes will persist and tighten. They already are, in many ways - boys who like to play with dolls and wear pink are told they may be girls and girls who reject those things are encouraged to consider that they might be boys.

Why can't we just let people enjoy life how they choose (and if that means men dressing 'as' women, so be it), whilst recognising that there are two sexes, numerous sexualities and that stereotypes are culturally produced and nothing do do with innate differences between the sexes?

In what way are they a woman though?
Lots of transwomen use Male facilities, they understand and respect womens boundaries.

Smileless2012

It's a scientific/biological fact that a trans woman is not a woman Bomogran and saying so is not being transphobic.

I agree with bomogran.

Of course the person is still genetically male but I see them as a woman too.

Change rooms are a tricky one, going into the men's would be problematic.
Or a female who has transitioned to a man going into the ladies room.

Diamond Lily's idea has some merit - not sure how it would work in practice but has potential.

It's a scientific/biological fact that a trans woman is not a woman Bomogran and saying so is not being transphobic.