The loss of freedom of speech, of sidelining women and biology

The whole philosophy pushes women and girls further and further back.

Imagine the setting of a novel set in 2030:

'Girly' boys, so defined simply on the basis of their toy choices and favourite colours, have become 'women'. Not of 'the weaker sex', however, they can excel at sport and in other areas where strength and a male physique is an advantage over so-called 'cis' women, who may or may not share their liking for pink princesses. The pool of 'male' athletes has shrunk, so male-born people are at an advantage however they 'identify', and the transwomen can choose to identify their sexuality as they wish, so have the pick of straight women, other transwomen, lesbians and straight or gay men, depending on preference. Anyone not attracted to this idea is clearly transphobic and a bigot, which has become a criminal offence, punishable by imprisonment. Also, as these 'women' are unable to have children, they are seen as preferred employees when it comes to hiring and promotion. No maternity pay to shell out, and firms can fulfil 'gender balance' quotas - it's a no-brainer! And what seemed to be 'progress' when it came to concessions for dealing with menopause in the workplace - guess who won't go through that, either? 'Cis' women are seen as a liability at work, and employers prefer to keep them in lower-paid 'support' roles.

'Boyish' girls have become 'men'. Weaker versions than the 'cis' men, of course, so at no advantage over them. With female socialisation and hormones, they pose little sexual threat either; particularly as their sex organs are either female or non-functioning male prosthetics. Virtually none of them compete against other men in areas requiring physical strength.

The women who have not 'identified' out of their sex, and who were neither born male nor of the 'favourite colour is blue and enjoys climbing trees and playing in mud' persuasion, are left with a disadvantage when it comes to sport or other areas where strength or stamina matter. As 'people who menstruate', however, they are necessary for reproduction, so when birthrates fall (as was inevitable when the number of women includes men, and an increasing number of women have 'become' men) they have been 'encouraged' to leave the workplace and produce children - the alternative being to 'identify' as male and keep their job/progress in their career. Lesbians are under increasing pressure to have sex with autogynephile transwomen, despite the obvious disadvantages of this to the women themselves.

Have I forgotten anyone? Does nobody do well out of this dystopian scenario? Oh yes! The male-born men. All intact and alpha. The gay ones can have transwomen as partners if they don't want to live as gay (which may well become more difficult as 'gender' roles become more clearly defined and rigorously enforced), and the straight ones will have non-transitioned women looking for someone to 'keep' them, now that well-paid career paths are closing for them. Being kept will, of course, have to be paid for with loss of financial freedom, and the need to find a 'provider' rather than a love match.

So, it's like 1950, but with free passes for gay men to have legal sex. Straight women are back in the home, lesbians are likely to 'pass' as straight, and keep their 'friendships' secret whilst living with male partners of one sort or another. Men have all the best jobs, and dominate the world of sport.

Does this seem like a grossly exaggerated scenario, or could you believe it as the basis for a dystopian novel/film?

Good points Rosie51.

It seems obvious to me that when a boy shows a liking for princess outfits or whatever, he becomes aware or is told directly that those are girl things & not really for boys and so he begins to think that he must be a girl.

Susie Green, now CEO of Mermaids, did begin by allowing her son to play with whatever he wanted although she jumped to the conclusion - when he was TWO! - that he may be gay.
Soon, however, she gave in to her homophobic husband and took away all her 4 year old son's 'girl toys'.
Looking for a solution, with child logic, her son told her he was really a girl.
And Susie acted on that as if it was fact.

The action needed from Susie at that point was to accept her son as he was, but she rushed into affirming him as a girl.

Here is Susie's Ted talk about this:

youtu.be/2ZiVPh12RQY

Here is Kimberly Shappley describing how she bullied her son, before he was 4 years old.

"There were time-outs, so many time-outs. There were spankings and yelling matches and endless prayers. I even contacted the daycare Kai attended and asked them to put away every single "girl" toy. They complied with it, but Kai never changed her tune."

www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/parenting/a43702/transgender-child-kimberly-shappley/

Kai is now 11 and will no doubt be on puberty blockers soon, if he isn't already.

Why does any child think that liking princesses, Barbie, my little pony, pink and purple means they should be a girl? If they are exposed to it being perfectly normal for little boys to like all those things would they still think they were 'wrong'? From the article you link to FarNorth Except my child never behaved like a typical boy. As soon as she could walk and talk, she let me know that she belonged in the world of girls: of ballet lessons, princesses and fairy queens. What a statement......talk about stereotypes! As I recall there are extremely talented male ballet dancers, should they all be girls too? All those years fighting stereotypes and the transgender agenda thrusts us back further and further.

It's odd isn't it that puberty blockers are "fully reversible" but going through puberty means permanent change, oh except when it's males who identify into women's sports and then a bit of testosterone suppression undoes every advantage. ??

"The next step would be for my daughter to take oestrogen hormones, so that she can develop from a girl into a woman. Since she has been living as a girl for as long as she can remember, it is unthinkable to her that she would have to grow up to be a man."
www.glamourmagazine.co.uk/article/parenting-a-transgender-child?utm_medium=applenews&utm_source=applenews

Because the male child has been coached from the age of four, by being treated as a girl with a girl name and girl pronouns, he believes that he must not become a male adult.
Note : being a male adult doesn't have to involve following stereotypes.

Social transition of children is not harmless.

This mother's perspective can sound quite persuasive but ignores the effect of her child living an untruth throughout his childhood.
(Which is the fault of adults, not of the child.)

"There is self ID in my city (Melbourne, Australia) Men are self identifying in to female sexual assault recovery services. Say no and they take you to the Human Rights Tribunal. Women self exclude.
Groups implode.
No more services for our most vulnerable women."

twitter.com/angijones/status/1500198531612950528

From an article addressed to organisations / employers who claim to be inclusive.

"Are you aware that [a girl or woman] with MRKH or Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome may find her bodily difference being described as “intersex”, incredibly difficult – especially if this is done as part of “inclusivity” training and without understanding anything about her needs?"

differently-normal.com/2022/05/17/an-open-letter-to-all-organisations-using-lgbtqi/

"However, the one thing we all did have in common is that the disability rights we were all arguing for didn't impact on anyone else's rights.

No able bodied person ever lost a thing with whatever we gained.

But, this thread isn't about disability so I'll leave it there.?"

DiamondLily, that was an interesting post. Not only did you not cause any disadvantage to able bodied people, but in fact the reverse. I well remember coming home from holiday one year to find that dropped kerbs had been added to pavements all over the town. It was suddenly a lot easier to push the double buggy around, so thank you very much! (The same applies to lifts in stations too.)

If the children can explain what 'being a woman' means (or a man), and how they know they should be one (not 'I just know'), I would be very interested to hear their comments.

And there are certainly parents, usually mothers, being blamed by their children for letting, or in some cases accused of forcing them, into treatment that the child/teen/adult later regrets, unless you think accounts from these the victims are untrue.
Gender dysphoria sufferers deserve support, counselling and understanding, but decisions about the use of chemical sterilisation, body altering drugs or surgery should not be used until the person is of a legal age where the parent is not required to sign/give consent for such treatment.
It was thankfully deemed wrong to subject homosexuals to treatment
or to sterilise people with intellectual disabilities. Why is it suddenly OK to do this to children?
For younger children
If we apply Gillick Competence, where
the legal right to make a decision on any particular matter concerning the child shifts from the parent to the child when the child reaches sufficient maturity to be capable of making up their own mind on the matter requiring decision,
Who would be able to say that all, or any children of 16 and under have that maturity and understanding of the future consequences of their choice of drugs or surgery?
Where is the evidence to back that up?

The NHS website gives these possible indicators of a young person with gender dysmorphia.

"Signs of gender dysphoria

People with gender dysphoria may have changed their appearance, their behaviour or their interests.

They may also show signs of discomfort or distress, including:

low self-esteem
becoming withdrawn or socially isolated
depression or anxiety
taking unnecessary risks
neglecting themselves"

It all seems very ambiguous....many teenagers go through these mood swings, where they often think some sort of change (whatever it might be) will make them happy.

Some, of course, may be genuinely seeking to change gender, but some may rush into starting treatments/surgery etc they may well live to regret.

As some young people have.

Which is why it's best not to do anything permanent or body changing, until adulthood.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

The trouble is there are many parents raising concerns about the treatment being offered to their children presenting with gender dysphoria, it would be much better if there was evidence based treatment and this appears to be lacking.

FarNorth

When did the issue start AussieNana?
When I say young children, I mean children of primary school age or even younger.

to be honest, I am not exactly sure.

he is now 23 and I have known his mother for about 8 years.

Certainly before that.

Doodledog

AussieNanna

"Aussienana, I wonder why you have chosen to compare trans issues with homosexuality? "

No - that isnt what I did at all.
Please don't read more into my post than there was.

I compared the way mothers were blamed for their children being homosexual to the way there was some blame attached to parents for their children being trans - the it must be the parents following stereotypes and we must investigate for the cause - type comments

That is the ONLY comparison I made between the 2 things.

Yes, I know you weren’t making a direct comparison between gay people and trans ones, and I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear.

But you could just as easily have said that mothers are blamed when their children misbehave, or when they commit crimes. Mothers are blamed for everything.

There is often conflation between sexuality and trans issues on here, with people who are critical of gender accused of homophobia. It’s wearing, but the accusers also bring in racism too - so it’s clear that there is no logic in their viewpoints.

I don’t see dismissal of dysphoria on here. That doesn’t mean it’s not there, or in any way negate the fact that you do see it, but what I see is concern that children are encouraged by one another, by teachers and sometimes by parents to see confusion about sexuality or the way in which’ gender’ is brought into everything nowadays, or just life in general as a situation that needs transitioning to make it better.

yes I could have said those things - but the comparison to mothers being blamed for homosexual sons seemed more of an apples for apples comparison to me - the blaming mothers for something which some people just are.

Misbehaving or crimes doesnt seem the same to me.

Blaming mothers for children being left handed might be similar - but since nobody, as far as I know, has done that, the comparison to blaming mothers for sons being homosexual seemed more relevant - since it is something that has actually happened.

Oops! I’m not with it just now, I should have been more clear, sorry.

I agree that we’ll have a long wait though. Nobody, however vocal they are on this subject, can answer those questions, but they underpin the whole thing.

For a moment, I thought MG meant me. I’d be interested to hear an answer to your question, but I fear we will be waiting . . .

Yes, it was all a bit pointless, wasn't it?

MG, if you disagree with what we are saying, why not explain why?

I've been saying for long enough that I'd love someone who believes that TWAW to explain their thought processes, without the use of the words 'just because' or 'they just know'.

That's what it boils down to in the end, when you strip away all the insults and twisting of words that tries to obscure the fact that they can't answer the most basic of questions. So here's a challenge - whether in your 'anonymous' ID or your 'even more anonymous' one, tell us what a man is and what a woman is, and then tell us how someone knows that they really should be one or the other?

MiserableGit has said their (fairly nonsensical) piece and has retreated, confident that we now know we've been rumbled.

Doodledog

Well quite!

And we’re back to homophobia, and old-style feminists?.

Also, who is ‘piling on’ whom, and how does hiding under an anonymised version of anonymity stop a poster from getting involved in one?

It’s too early for me. I’m taking my tea back to bed.

I would have thought if you were concerned about getting "piled on" using one name, the worry must still exist whatever second name you use?

It's pointless anyway - if you post on a forum "your" style of posting is recognisable. Everyone posts differently. ?

Glorianny

But we should remember that disability rights were not won by people keeping quiet or a low profile. In the 80's and the 90s disabled people chained themselves to public transport, blocked the tube in London, blocked roads and tipped themselves out of wheelchairs to make it hard for police to arrest them and generally behaved badly. Many condemned them.
They also had some very sarcastic songs about non-disabled people and their attitudes. The didn't say non-disabled people hated them, they said they pitied them which they viewed as much worse.
Ian Stanton a singer and activist had a notice on stage with him. "Piss on Pity"
Disability Rights were won by people who behaved badly.

I've got a neurological disability, and my DH has other problems. Over the last 20+ years we have been involved with campaigns for things like better access (lifts at railway stations, so we could change platforms was one), and flat kerb slopes, more accessible toilets etc were others.

I was involved with "fighting" the government over disability benefits and the stress filled lunacy of dodgy assessments, appeals, tribunals etc.

There were some radical protestors, but the vast majority of us just got on with lobbying, establishing rights etc.

There were some verbal fights between disabled and non disabled - but not that much. Most of us just gelled on with everyone.

However, the one thing we all did have in common is that the disability rights we were all arguing for didn't impact on anyone else's rights.

No able bodied person ever lost a thing with whatever we gained.

But, this thread isn't about disability so I'll leave it there.?

Well quite!

And we’re back to homophobia, and old-style feminists?.

Also, who is ‘piling on’ whom, and how does hiding under an anonymised version of anonymity stop a poster from getting involved in one?

It’s too early for me. I’m taking my tea back to bed.

And remember that women under 40 cant think for themselves. So impressionable. They probably shouldnt be allowed to vote or leave the house even

What I find (mildly) amusing is the proud declaration of Miserablegit’s anonymity. I mean, obviously I use my real name on here, but not everyone does - the whole point of user names is that they create anonymity.
Yours faithfully
D Dog (Mrs)

Oh, and the idea that infiltrators from MN are in our midst like some sort of fifth column is laughable too. We don’t allow that sort over here! I’ll have you know that I report direct to the puppet-master, not to young whippersnappers from foreign parts . The very idea of Quislings posting on more than one part of the Internet makes by blood run cold?. Choose a board and stick to it, I say!

Hilarious dismissal of the intelligent women on MN. It always makes me smile that people are so frightened of MN.

MiserableGit

I've had to come on here under another ID as i don't want to get involved in a pile on.

Alas, so much of the mumsnet brigade are probably in here stirring up the same hate which has given MN such an awful name. Transphobia masquerading as feminism is sickening for those older women who fought so hard to get to where we are now.

Whilst some of those sad tropes might work well on the impressionable 18-40 mumsnet lot, some of us have seen this before, when it was homophobia in the 70's and we saw that off with some aplomb then and we'll see transphobia off in the same way.

Biological women wanting to maintain their long held rights doesn't really translate into "hate".

Surely the fact that biological women of all ages are fighting against this, tells you something?

Trying to change biology, and reality, by pretending that biological men, identifying as women, are suddenly a different sex, can never succeed.

Homosexuals took away no one's rights. Their private life, rightly, was something that only affected them.

They weren't trying to cheat at sports, or barge into women's safe spaces, or insist on being included in medical monitoring for things that couldn't possibly affect them, and they didn't pretend to be biological women.

Two different subjects.

AussieNanna

"Aussienana, I wonder why you have chosen to compare trans issues with homosexuality? "

No - that isnt what I did at all.
Please don't read more into my post than there was.

I compared the way mothers were blamed for their children being homosexual to the way there was some blame attached to parents for their children being trans - the it must be the parents following stereotypes and we must investigate for the cause - type comments

That is the ONLY comparison I made between the 2 things.

Yes, I know you weren’t making a direct comparison between gay people and trans ones, and I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear.

But you could just as easily have said that mothers are blamed when their children misbehave, or when they commit crimes. Mothers are blamed for everything.

There is often conflation between sexuality and trans issues on here, with people who are critical of gender accused of homophobia. It’s wearing, but the accusers also bring in racism too - so it’s clear that there is no logic in their viewpoints.

I don’t see dismissal of dysphoria on here. That doesn’t mean it’s not there, or in any way negate the fact that you do see it, but what I see is concern that children are encouraged by one another, by teachers and sometimes by parents to see confusion about sexuality or the way in which’ gender’ is brought into everything nowadays, or just life in general as a situation that needs transitioning to make it better.