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The loss of freedom of speech, of sidelining women and biology

(874 Posts)
DiamondLily Thu 12-May-22 12:47:27

I've been asked to repost this:

'Julie Bindel had a pretty horrendous time whilst delivering a (previously postponed) lecture to York University's Free Speech Society.

The activists, who say we must be "all be kind" didn't display much courtesy or kindness to her.?

She was abused, accused, screamed at, and had placards thrust in her face. The TW mob were out in force, and she was "invited" to kiss their "man-boobs" and told things she could do with their "trans d*cks".

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-10806353/JULIE-BINDEL-explains-female-students-bullied-hearing-feminists.html

Meanwhile, in the Court case involving Alison Bailey, Stonewall tell us that there are no such things as male and female bodies. They don't exist...?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10807211/We-not-inherently-male-female-Stonewall-campaigner-says-bodies-just-bodies.html

It sure is a funny old world out there in Trans La-La land.

DiamondLily Tue 28-Jun-22 12:21:56

volver

Oh, OK. So that's the way this debate is run is it?

They call us names so we can call them names too. Anybody who disagrees with me is fair game for abuse.

There are lots of things I feel strongly about. And there are extreme people at the fringes of the causes I feel strongly about that behave like savages and who don't help the cause at all. They embarrass me and I think they cheapen debate. But I've never felt the need to call them c*** and use slurs on them relating to their sexuality.

For what its worth, I probably disagree with Daley on this. But you can never have a serious conversation about any of this stuff with it descending into a shouting match. What have we come to, indeed.

I said that Twitter was an awful place, always full of abuse and insults, about any subject.

Of course, abuse, threats, insults etc. aren't the right way to debate anything - but I never see any of that on any of these GN threads anyway.

Cancelling people, and often trying to trash their careers, isn't good either.

I've never seen a thread on here where being gay is denigrated.

You say there is a row on Twitter. I don't read it, so I can't really comment on what they do on there.

Galaxy Tue 28-Jun-22 12:09:02

No I suspect people will just carry on talking about it.

volver Tue 28-Jun-22 11:32:23

Yes, a whatabout manner if you like

Both sides insult each other and call each other names. Both sides behave like extremists. And until that stops, we'll be no further forward. But I expect someone will come along and tell me that everything's awful and I don't know how bad things are and haven't I read about the period fetishists.

Heigh ho.

Galaxy Tue 28-Jun-22 11:29:28

Quite spooky fanny. I was reading Simon Fanshawes views today so it reminded me of the work he is doing.

Doodledog Tue 28-Jun-22 11:21:53

Oh, OK. So that's the way this debate is run is it? They call us names so we can call them names too. Anybody who disagrees with me is fair game for abuse.

Er no ?. Remind me - who was it who brought in the fact that Daley has had people call him names? Why was that brought up, if not to compare it to the abuse against Bindel et al in a 'whatabout' manner?

FannyCornforth Tue 28-Jun-22 11:17:10

Oh! What very similar posts!
Great minds eh Galaxy? ?

FannyCornforth Tue 28-Jun-22 11:16:19

Yes, I think that too Varian
I used to really love Tom Daley, going back to when he was a young lad.
Simon Fanshawe has turned his back on Stonewall

Galaxy Tue 28-Jun-22 11:14:52

I suspect he just hasnt considered womens rights in his statement. He wont be the first or the last person to do that.
Just as an aside Simon Fanshawe has been doggedly supporting women for a long time now, I think many who originally supported Stonewall are quite split on this issue.

varian Tue 28-Jun-22 11:08:26

I suspect that Tom Daley is influenced by the attitudes promoted by Stonewall, an organisation originally set up to campaign for gay men and lesbians, but now involved in promoting trans rights, which is a completely separate issue.

volver Tue 28-Jun-22 11:00:26

Oh, OK. So that's the way this debate is run is it?

They call us names so we can call them names too. Anybody who disagrees with me is fair game for abuse.

There are lots of things I feel strongly about. And there are extreme people at the fringes of the causes I feel strongly about that behave like savages and who don't help the cause at all. They embarrass me and I think they cheapen debate. But I've never felt the need to call them c*** and use slurs on them relating to their sexuality.

For what its worth, I probably disagree with Daley on this. But you can never have a serious conversation about any of this stuff with it descending into a shouting match. What have we come to, indeed.

Galaxy Tue 28-Jun-22 10:32:53

I think Tom Daly often behaves in a misogynistic way. He has utter disregard for women in many of the statements he makes. I am utterly opposed to commercial surrogacy and have serious concerns about other forms of surrogacy.

DiamondLily Tue 28-Jun-22 10:32:05

volver

On Twitter this morning, Tom Daley is being called a parasite, misogynist, contemptuous of women, "womb renter", having a hissy fit and being told to go and knit himself a blanket and stay in his own lane.

What's in the title of this thread again? Oh yes. ^The loss of freedom of speech...^

Twitter is a site that is constantly full of abuse and insults, flying in all directions - ghastly place.

He might have been insulted, but I bet he hadn't been cancelled yet, by a screaming mob...?

Unlike Rowling, Bindel et al.

Doodledog Tue 28-Jun-22 10:27:08

Oh, come on.

Nothing in your post comes close to Bindel being 'abused, screamed at and having placards thrust in her face. The TW mob were out in force, and she was "invited" to kiss their "man-boobs" and told things she could do with their "trans d*cks"', does it?

Free speech does not mean freedom from disagreement, but it should mean freedom from threats and abuse, and from being cancelled, which happened to Bindel in Nottingham.

volver Tue 28-Jun-22 10:21:44

On Twitter this morning, Tom Daley is being called a parasite, misogynist, contemptuous of women, "womb renter", having a hissy fit and being told to go and knit himself a blanket and stay in his own lane.

What's in the title of this thread again? Oh yes. The loss of freedom of speech...

Chewbacca Tue 28-Jun-22 10:20:22

Yes, as someone pointed out, if Mike Tyson identified as disabled, would it be fair for him to fight someone with artificial limbs or a wheelchair?

That wins post of the day for me. Brilliantly illustrated.

DiamondLily Tue 28-Jun-22 10:17:32

Tom Daley has nothing to lose by it. As a man, he will never have to compete against someone of a "physically stronger" sex.?

Sharron Davies understood the issues, and has long spoken out against TW being able to compete against women in swimming.

Mollygo Tue 28-Jun-22 10:08:20

I wouldn’t deny any transgender swimmers or boxers or cyclists or any other physical sport the right to compete with other transgender swimmers or boxers or cyclists or Weightlifters. I equally wouldn’t deny any transgender person the right to compete in competition with people of the same biological sex that they are. Why don’t they do that? Because there’s no guarantee they’d win.
It’s cheating! I’m surprised at Tom Daley, or maybe not. Gay or not he’s a male and evidently wants males to succeed by fair means or foul. .

Doodledog Tue 28-Jun-22 10:07:32

That's horrible on every level, isn't it?

What have we come to?

Keeper1 Tue 28-Jun-22 10:04:36

Slightly off topic following the ruling on abortion in USA it has been reported that women are deleting apps they have been using to track their health including their periods for fear that their data may be collected and used to determine possible pregnancy /abortions. What disturbed me was the wording in the article referred to women and people with uteruses were cancelling the app.

DiamondLily Tue 28-Jun-22 10:00:06

Yes, as someone pointed out, if Mike Tyson identified as disabled, would it be fair for him to fight someone with artificial limbs or a wheelchair?

Being gay doesn't affect sporting prowess or ability, but a biological man, competing against a biological woman, is just cheating.?

Doodledog Tue 28-Jun-22 09:56:27

Yeah, but it's ok for women not to be able to win in Sport 'just because of who they are', which means that they can't realistically hope to win against men?

Pillock. He was a good ambassador for the gay community, too, but has made a fool of himself with this one.

DiamondLily Tue 28-Jun-22 09:52:37

Tom Daley, the Olympic swimmer, seems a bit confused over comparisons around being gay, and TW's competing against women:

"Tom Daley has slammed the ban on transgender swimmers from elite female competitions. Fina, swimming ’s world governing body, which also regulates diving, voted in favour of the ruling that prevents transgender athletes from competing at this level if they have gone through any part of the process of male puberty.

Speaking at the British LGBT Awards, Daley, 28, said: “I was furious. You know, like most queer people, anyone that’s told that they can’t compete or can’t do something they love just because of who they are, it’s not on. It’s something I feel really strongly about. Giving trans people the chance to share their side.”

He added: “It’s really, really difficult to figure out who you are when the public are watching and everybody is looking at you. It was a very stressful way to figure out who I am, honestly. But when you figure out who you are and you get to be comfortable with that, that’s when you start to move forward, and you can openly and outwardly and unapologetically do it, then you can really truly be free.”

www.mirror.co.uk/sport/other-sports/tom-daley-furious-transgender-ban-27335100

Doodledog Tue 28-Jun-22 09:49:05

I don't know how anyone can think that this is acceptable.

By all means have groups for transwomen who have been victims of sexual violence, but if there is any area where the sexes should be separate, this is surely it?

FarNorth Tue 28-Jun-22 09:47:07

Here's the link for that
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61958346

Chewbacca Tue 28-Jun-22 09:36:53

BBC news today:

A woman who is suing a rape crisis charity says she felt unable to speak at a support group after a transgender woman began attending the same meeting.

"Sarah", who says she was raped in her 20s, stopped going to the sessions, saying she became uncomfortable sharing details of her past with the group.
She says the centre could have offered separate groups, telling the BBC: "I think my case is about women's rights."
The charity, Survivors' Network says it plans to vigorously defend the claim.
It says male victims of sexual violence are referred to neighbouring services, but trans women "are welcome into all of our women-only spaces".

However, Sarah's lawyers claim that by adopting a trans-inclusive approach - and not providing a session for women who were born female - the charity, in Brighton, failed to meet the needs of all sexual violence victims.

Sarah is bringing the case under the Equality Act, claiming indirect discrimination as well as victimisation and harassment. She said: "I think women have sex-based rights and protections and these are under threat at the moment from trans activism."

Last year, she knew she was going to have to come into contact with the man who attacked her. "I was finding it really hard to cope and I was having increased anxiety attacks," she says. "So I decided to approach Survivors' Network for help."

She says she felt an immediate benefit from the group sessions. "We had either been abused as children or had experiences as women. It was a very safe space to speak about the feelings we had been through."
She added: "We spoke a lot about how we were manipulated and coerced by men. I can't tell you how much it helped me mentally."

Sarah says a new person attended a session, whom she understood to be a trans woman. She said the person presented as typically male, wearing male clothing. "I was a bit taken aback. I decided I wasn't going to speak that week because I wasn't comfortable."
"I don't trust men because I have been raped by a man. I've been sexually abused by men. And I just don't necessarily trust that men are always who they say they are," she said.

However, she says the person running the session asked her to speak to the group. "I felt manipulated and coerced into talking," she said. "When I left the session I had a panic attack, I was absolutely distraught."

Sarah says she felt the presence of the trans woman in the group changed the atmosphere and discussion. She says she is not transphobic, but feels she now can't use the service.
"I think it's fantastic that trans survivors feel that there is a safe space for them that they can go and seek help. But for me personally, a mixed sex space doesn't work."

She added: "I think having just one additional group for women who are born female would be the answer."

How long have we been saying that this will happen?