Our bloated NHS - it’s beyond ridiculous now.

Callistemon21

^The weird thing is that everyone seems to think that the NHS suffers from too much funding^.

I hadn't noticed that everyone on the thread thought that at all

Nit picking, Callistemon

I was generalising.

Not so much shortage of funding as mismanaged funding. Incredible waste is obvious in many hospitals.
Just one example, we have used our nearest hospital for 30 years, I can remember at least twelve complete changes of the decor of the arrival area, not bigger, not more efficient, not more hygienic, not even more pleasant just a big change of colour scheme, newly painted, new seating, flooring, wall hangings, reception desks, lighting, plastic plants and no doubt a huge design bill.
Same in the wards and corridors. One year mixed wards in blue, then small individual cubicles in a variety of colours, then small single sex wards of six in different colours, then back to mixed wards.

MaizieD

Callistemon21

The weird thing is that everyone seems to think that the NHS suffers from too much funding.

I hadn't noticed that everyone on the thread thought that at all

Nit picking, Callistemon

I was generalising.

Not nit picking
Just facts!!

?

Yes, for those on here asking for suggestions, how about we just go with BJ's idea of 50,000 more nurses? Sounds like a very good start to me.

More beds would probably help too.

GagaJo

Yes, for those on here asking for suggestions, how about we just go with BJ's idea of 50,000 more nurses? Sounds like a very good start to me.

More beds would probably help too.

More beds?

Oh, GagaJo, have you forgotten about 40 new hospitals?

Not so much shortage of funding as mismanaged funding

Precisely this Laura. Including an oversupply of 'managers'.

Including an oversupply of 'managers'.

Really kittylester? Several posters have given evidence of how that is not the case. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

volver

^Including an oversupply of 'managers'.^

Really kittylester? Several posters have given evidence of how that is not the case. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

I think it's confirmation bias, volver. Ignore the information that disagrees with your beliefs.

My DD is an oncology nurse/manager. There are many with medical qualifications who are also managers.
Should we get rid of all those medically qualified managers, many who work with patients too as does my DD?

Not all departments are managed well. Take procurement as an example. Shortage of PPE at the outbreak of a major pandemic was a disgrace not all down to government.

I think it's confirmation bias, volver. Ignore the information that disagrees with your beliefs.

Or believe what one has seen.

This world is in a mess, I think.

We have reports and analyses from people who know what they are talking about, that say the NHS is undermanaged.

Then we have people who love to tell us that their auntie's hairdresser's cousin had a bad experience so obviously there are too many managers.

And these people have no idea that they are being manipulated to think that way by the government. We seem to have had too much of experts, right enough.

(I really should stay off this thread.)

I wanted to chip in about diversity and comments made earlier in the thread alleging that resources allocated to this were a waste. Apologies if this has been explained. I have leapt over bits of the thread where things got too personally combative at the expense of factual argument.

Every NHS Trust must have an equality, diversity and inclusion policy to comply with the requirements of the Equality Act 2010 especially with regard public service provision. It’s the law and is not only about staff. Policy must have action plans on both Patient Equality, Diversity and Inclusion as well as Staff Equality, Diversity and Inclusion, Many are published online so people here can look them up for themselves.

These policies recognise that people are different and their care needs in hospital will be different taking into account age, disability, gender, faith, cognitive ability, mental health, ethicity etc.

If you are admitted with a broken leg your overall care needs will be different depending on you are, say, young, old, disabled by dementia, hearing-impairment, sight-impairment, have faith requirements etc etc.

EDI managers seek to work with specialists and specialistic agencies in those fields to improve the patient experience by planning and implementing policy including structural changes to hospital layout and signage, staff awareness and training and a host of other factors.

There might be an argument for there to be a national policy rather than individual trusts writing their own. You’ll see if you look at some of those online that they vary in overall approach, length and detail. On the other hand, local trusts need to take into account the specific needs of their particular communities in prioritising change.

LauraNorderr

Not so much shortage of funding as mismanaged funding. Incredible waste is obvious in many hospitals.
Just one example, we have used our nearest hospital for 30 years, I can remember at least twelve complete changes of the decor of the arrival area, not bigger, not more efficient, not more hygienic, not even more pleasant just a big change of colour scheme, newly painted, new seating, flooring, wall hangings, reception desks, lighting, plastic plants and no doubt a huge design bill.
Same in the wards and corridors. One year mixed wards in blue, then small individual cubicles in a variety of colours, then small single sex wards of six in different colours, then back to mixed wards.

Oh god, yes, this LauraNorder. Over the years when I worked (admin only) in our local District General Hospital, every raft of new management would re-invent the wheel. Colours, signage - money was no object. Doubt it affected patient outcomes.

Actually I think that the consensus of opinion on this thread is something needs to be done to heal the NHS

The contentious part is what that something is

But do people writing reports actually gave experience of being managed in the NHS?

DH was assigned a (nother) manager - there were 3 more above her - who asked him to come in for a chat. The chat was partly because she didn't know what his job title meant.

So, no auntie's, hairdressers or cousins involved at all. And how rude to assume no one else knows anything.

I really should stay off this thread, its not good for my blood pressure.

So a senior manager asked your DH about his job and you are angry about that? They actually asked a person doing the job what their job entailed and you are complaining about that? But if they had just sailed ahead and made decisions without consulting your DH, how would that have been? Would that have been more acceptable?

Or maybe you think the senior managers should only be people who have done you DH's job and so know all about it? So then who will do your DH's job if they are all made into managers?

Honestly, I can't cope. Time for lunch.

LauraNorder is correct in her observation regarding NHS procurement depts. When NHS Trusts, and departments within them, merge or amalgamate, which they quite often do, new logos, new stationary and signage are all changed at eye watering costs. I couldn't believe the wastage.

Deliberate mis reading volver and making assumptions based on your prejudices.

The (not senior) manager didn't know what his job title meant not what was involved. Quite why he needed 4 managers above him when he was the only person doing his job, goodness only knows.

I didn't say I, or Dh, were angry. Bemused would cover it and, as he was the only one doing it, it would be weird for them to make decisions about it. It either was a job or it wasn't.

It seems to me that we all agree that the NHS is broken but we have different ideas of how it can be fixed and a lot of that depends on your political persuasion. If you just look at the disagreements on here you can see how difficult it must be for political parties to resolve the problems and keep the public happy. I suspect that there is a multi pronged approach needed but party politics dictates that one concentrates on only throwing money at the problem, the other works on cutting waste.
Sadly, I have been heavily involved in using the services the hospitals and GP's provide as the congenital condition our family suffers from mean quite a lot of operations, trips to A&E, fighting to get treatment and getting medical professionals to understand how the condition affects us. Slap in dash of autism, mental health conditions, dyspraxia and ADHD (all of which are comorbidities of the condition) we have seen a wide variety of services over the years and noticed the changes, good and bad. We are not experts but when we see the same "pathways" being insisted upon for each member of the family, with long waiting lists, professionals who know less about the condition than you do (and admit it) then you start to question whether the system is working optimally. People's lives are being put on hold...usually when they are young so it has all sorts of knock on effects, then the frustration is overwhelming. Referrals to London hospitals or different "specialist" services have nearly always had to start from the beginning because the full records are not available. It is at best inefficient, at worst negligent if these systems are supposed to be joined up. It is no wonder we feel we should be believed and are suspicious of the research.
If it was only the NHS who each had their own systems with bolt on bits which don't quite mesh, are often very expensive to make changes to in order to get them enmeshed only to find that any further changes can't be done so they have to be replaced, it wouldn't be so bad. My family are heavily involved in other public institutions working within the IT sectors and the stories of wasted IT purchases and adaptions have to be seen to be believed. Most of the time it seems that the people who are doing the buying are not Systems trained and will believe the Sales People over the people who know about coding/integration and the like within their own organisation. My husband was also involved with the IT for HR and his biggest complaint is that the people doing the liaising with the Sales people didn't know the right questions to ask and understood the answer even less if you gave them the questions. Add in the fact that each area buys their own systems and you have a lack of joined up thinking that causes massively wasted funds.

Experience is as relevant as research imo.
I’m not a chef but I know a good omelette when I taste one. I’m not a surveyor but I recognise damp when I see it.
I’m sure we all vote for a political party based on our life experience, what we see and hear around us. Not many of us have had to work at Downing Street to form an opinion.

No personal knowledge or experience, but everyone I know who works, or has worked, for the NHS (both admin and medics) has said there are too many managers and a huge amount of waste.

Just remembered something. For years a cohort of us med secs occupied one area of office space. Two secretaries to an office. On tiny room with no windows, cubby holes for the post was designated a rest room/coffee area/lunch spot. It had 4 small chairs against the wall, ripped carpet that was taped over, peeling plaster. Someone asked for a small fridge and a microwave. No dice. One of my colleagues was having her kitchen refurbished. Her husband brought in their old ones which (fair enough) had to be checked by the hospital electricians and issued with a safe to use sticker.

My mum called in one lunchtime to drop something off for me. She was horrified by the room. Said it was shabby and disgusting that this is where we ate. I told her it was either this or eat a sandwich at our desks! Over the years we failed to register it.
?
We did ask if it could be painted perhaps? ‘No money’ we were told.

A couple of the secretaries wanted to go in over a couple of weekends to paint it. ‘Not allowed’ we were told. Some health & safety rules. Plus procurement of paint to certain standards. Blah, blah.

Other secretaries we’re against the whole concept of doing it up ourselves. Why should we give up our weekends they cried? Fair enough. Nothing got done. It just became shabbier I dare say over the years....

Then a new raft of managers took over. We were relocated, systems changed and the managers decided this long corridor with easy access to many room (some used by our consultants) was ideal for their needs. Fair dinkum.

But my goodness, you should have seen the refurbishment that corridor got! It was like that tv programme where a team of plasterers, painters, joiners descend to do a ‘makeover’. New flooring, new carpets, plush seating. Then our swipe cards no longer ‘accessed all areas’ to that corridor. The porter on the front desk just outside said to me ‘you should see the kitchen! New wall units, a dishwasher (!) (we didn’t even have a sink when we were in there - we washed our pots in the sink in the ladies loo, horrid really), an Nespresso machine.... all this was 10 years ago now.

Nothing was too good for these managers it seemed.
I doubt much has changed - in hospital Trusts up and down the land.

icanhandthemback

It seems to me that we all agree that the NHS is broken but we have different ideas of how it can be fixed and a lot of that depends on your political persuasion. If you just look at the disagreements on here you can see how difficult it must be for political parties to resolve the problems and keep the public happy. I suspect that there is a multi pronged approach needed but party politics dictates that one concentrates on only throwing money at the problem, the other works on cutting waste.
Sadly, I have been heavily involved in using the services the hospitals and GP's provide as the congenital condition our family suffers from mean quite a lot of operations, trips to A&E, fighting to get treatment and getting medical professionals to understand how the condition affects us. Slap in dash of autism, mental health conditions, dyspraxia and ADHD (all of which are comorbidities of the condition) we have seen a wide variety of services over the years and noticed the changes, good and bad. We are not experts but when we see the same "pathways" being insisted upon for each member of the family, with long waiting lists, professionals who know less about the condition than you do (and admit it) then you start to question whether the system is working optimally. People's lives are being put on hold...usually when they are young so it has all sorts of knock on effects, then the frustration is overwhelming. Referrals to London hospitals or different "specialist" services have nearly always had to start from the beginning because the full records are not available. It is at best inefficient, at worst negligent if these systems are supposed to be joined up. It is no wonder we feel we should be believed and are suspicious of the research.
If it was only the NHS who each had their own systems with bolt on bits which don't quite mesh, are often very expensive to make changes to in order to get them enmeshed only to find that any further changes can't be done so they have to be replaced, it wouldn't be so bad. My family are heavily involved in other public institutions working within the IT sectors and the stories of wasted IT purchases and adaptions have to be seen to be believed. Most of the time it seems that the people who are doing the buying are not Systems trained and will believe the Sales People over the people who know about coding/integration and the like within their own organisation. My husband was also involved with the IT for HR and his biggest complaint is that the people doing the liaising with the Sales people didn't know the right questions to ask and understood the answer even less if you gave them the questions. Add in the fact that each area buys their own systems and you have a lack of joined up thinking that causes massively wasted funds.

I don't think the NHS is broken. I think it survived Covid and got us through lockdown remarkably well.
I think it is massively underfunded and is being deliberately underfunded so the Tories can convince you it is broken. I posted earlier links Tory MPs have with private health care. Do you really imagine those links don't influence what they do for the NHS?
A look at this might help www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/spending-and-availability-health-care-resources?gclid=CjwKCAjwj42UBhAAEiwACIhADmLeARgFZVqNoOzjY2i7dgdZD8mlWuYVEupike54zkQD4b_TJTgRRRoCrHgQAvD_BwE
In 2018 only Poland had fewer doctors and nurses per head of the population than the UK.
We are usually in the bottom few of any of the standards referred to.
And we are bottom for CT and MRI scanners.
This after 12 years of Tory rule.
Those of us who remember what things were like when Blair came to office might just be forgiven for thinking we've been here before!

Experience is as relevant as research imo.

It just isn't.

Experience only presents one with a tiny part of the picture, viewed from only one angle; research gives a far wider and objective view.

On the other hand, thorough research will take into account the experiences of the service user and the service providers where it is appropriate.

If 'research' into a particular service were to find that only 2 out of 1,000 users had had a bad experience would that make it a badly run service or a good one?

It was certainly bad for the 2 people who had the bad experience, but a decent service would have systems in place to deal with this. Probably one of those much despised 'managers'

And while people are fixating on waste, how about when it works in the reverse direction with thousands upon thousands of missed appointments each year?