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Our bloated NHS - it’s beyond ridiculous now.

(521 Posts)

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Urmstongran Mon 16-May-22 10:07:56

At the moment, only about one third of NHS staff are doctors or nurses (roughly 450,000 out of 1.4million employees).

The new analysis shows that the number of officials working in the Department of Health and NHS England has more than doubled in two years, with even sharper rises seen at the most senior levels. Meanwhile the number of nurses rose by just seven per cent, thinktank the Policy Exchange found.

Its experts said the trends showed an “astonishing” explosion in central bureaucracy, calling for an urgent review and action to slim down and streamline its workings.

The findings come ahead of a review of leadership in the NHS by a former army general.

Sir Gordon Messenger has been sent in by Sajid Javid, the Health Secretary, amid concern over the quality of management in the NHS as the service faces the biggest backlogs in its history.

growstuff Mon 16-May-22 16:18:47

Callistemon21

volver

‘Private’ bad? Not always.

Yes. Always.

And if you think it was "private medicine" that produced the Covid vaccine, then your idea that I am lying in wait for you isn't the only daft idea you've had today.

What about all the pharmaceutical companies developing the latest medicines for eg cancer and many other diseases?

Many people would not be here today without those drugs.

They wouldn't do it without funding, some of which comes from the government through research grants, and if they thought the NHS wouldn't buy the end products.

BeEmerald Mon 16-May-22 16:17:50

volver I understand the point you’re making. Your dad was lucky to have a daughter like you. thanks

winterwhite Mon 16-May-22 16:17:18

Ran the vaccine-giving process is what I meant, sorry.

growstuff Mon 16-May-22 16:16:46

Urmstongran

I thought Astra-Zeneca, a private company, produced the UK Covid vaccine?

You thought wrong!

Scientists at Oxford University developed it with government funding. Astra Zeneca manufactured and marketed it.

MissAdventure Mon 16-May-22 16:16:20

I've no idea, never having used private care.

Callistemon21 Mon 16-May-22 16:16:07

volver

^‘Private’ bad? Not always.^

Yes. Always.

And if you think it was "private medicine" that produced the Covid vaccine, then your idea that I am lying in wait for you isn't the only daft idea you've had today.

What about all the pharmaceutical companies developing the latest medicines for eg cancer and many other diseases?

Many people would not be here today without those drugs.

Urmstongran Mon 16-May-22 16:15:12

I thought Astra-Zeneca, a private company, produced the UK Covid vaccine?

DaisyAnne Mon 16-May-22 16:14:57

MissAdventure

Purely anecdotal, (the same as everyone else who is talking about their own or a family members wxperience) but my girls care left a whole lot to be desired.

So do you think she would have had better care, MissAdventure, if she had been privately treated? If so, could you have afforded it? If not why not work towards a better funded NHS?

growstuff Mon 16-May-22 16:12:37

And how much do you think those "top brains" would charge to dismantle the system and start again? Wouldn't they contribute to the allegedly bloated top management?

Callistemon21 Mon 16-May-22 16:12:33

MissAdventure

Purely anecdotal, (the same as everyone else who is talking about their own or a family members wxperience) but my girls care left a whole lot to be desired.

I agree, everyone's experiences are different.
Most of us can relate excellent experiences as well as disastrous ones, some of ours from years ago ad others very recently indeed.

I could also relate recent administration and management problems which have left doctors, nurses and patients in despair.

When it works it is wonderful but yes, there are inefficiencies, mistakes, perhaps because the organisation is so huge and possibly cumbersome.

I don't know what the answer is; more money is needed for a start, obviously, but targeted in the right way.
Better social care so patients who no longer need a bed can be discharged.
More money is desperately needed by the Ambulance services.
Improvements to GP services so that people do not have to be forced to go to A&E and wait, as they do here, for hours or even days.
Re-opening of Minor Injuries Units for the same reason.

Urmstongran Mon 16-May-22 16:12:26

Sadly some old people cannot even make that choice over paying for surgery. So they are pretty stuck. In pain or discomfort, waiting & worrying, for a call up. Will it ever come in time?

growstuff Mon 16-May-22 16:10:34

JenniferEccles

I am sure nobody is doubting the wonderful advances in medical treatment over the years, but that’s not the same thing as saying that the NHS in its present state is fit for purpose as it quite clearly isn’t.
I also agree that throwing yet more billions at it isn’t the answer.

If a private company was run the same way, would it survive?
Maybe our health service needs the top business brains to dismantle the system and start again.

So what do you think the answer is, without spending any more money?

It's easy to criticise, but not so easy to come up with solutions.

volver Mon 16-May-22 16:10:31

‘Private’ bad? Not always.

Yes. Always.

And if you think it was "private medicine" that produced the Covid vaccine, then your idea that I am lying in wait for you isn't the only daft idea you've had today.

winterwhite Mon 16-May-22 16:09:40

Please remind us, OP, how much Test and trace cost, and who got the vaccines up and running and rolled out, and how many extra staff were taken on for each?

volver Mon 16-May-22 16:08:42

This is not meant to be judgemental BeEmerald, please don't take it that way.

DF needed his cataracts done and was told he'd have a 2 year wait. He is late eighties and 2 years is a long time when you are that age. So we paid for it. It's completely against my principles, and his. But we did it. He worried about "spending my inheritance" but I'd rather see my DF enjoy his old age, than have any sort of inheritance.

JenniferEccles Mon 16-May-22 16:08:36

I am sure nobody is doubting the wonderful advances in medical treatment over the years, but that’s not the same thing as saying that the NHS in its present state is fit for purpose as it quite clearly isn’t.
I also agree that throwing yet more billions at it isn’t the answer.

If a private company was run the same way, would it survive?
Maybe our health service needs the top business brains to dismantle the system and start again.

Urmstongran Mon 16-May-22 16:08:27

‘Private’ bad? Not always.
Let’s not forget the wonderful partnership that private paid in producing the Covid vaccine.

BeEmerald Mon 16-May-22 16:03:37

DaisyAnne the answer is money, my dear. I’m old and I’d like to have something to leave my children. I just hope that I am capable enough to bow out gracefully before becoming incapacitated enough to watch any inheritance they’d get swallowed by care home fees.
Apart from that I believe if people have worked all their lives and paid National Insurance they should be given free quality Health Care.

silverlining48 Mon 16-May-22 15:58:57

This constant money being ‘thrown’ At the nhs would be a joke if it wasn’t so serious. The nhs is being and has been fir many years, sold off bit by bit to private companies whose sole raison d’etre is to make profit fir its already well paid directors and shareholders. They do not reinvest profits fir the better good, for facilities or more staff so they are better supported and less overworked making it less likely they leave because of burnout. No that is not how they work. Profit is their motive. When staff leave they are not replaced, the poor exhausted buggers who remain have to pick up the slack, doing their own job and someone else’s too, fir no more money, no thanks, no nothing.
Promises by our unworthy PM for 40 new hospitals 50,000 new doctors 45,000 new nurses, another 50 billion here there and everywhere. It all means nothing. He is full of hot air. Not much else.
The government are running it down so that they can say despite the squillions we pay it’s not working. Well it won’t because the money is leaking out as profits instead of being reinvested. They will say it’s a dead dog and we need another system, and god or whoever help us if they choose an American style one.
A very simple example is the aids which people often comment on that the hospital won’t take them back, what a terrible waste we all say. The reason is that part of the nhs was sold off to private companies looking for profit. Why would they bother to wipe down crutches or walkers, wheelchairs or expensive seating etc if they can just chuck that and order new. Profit profit profit is the reason and there is no profit in cleaning perfectly cleanable aids if they can just get new in.

BeEmerald Mon 16-May-22 15:56:21

True Urmstongran the same way I can’t get a hip replacement on the NHS but can if I pay privately. The same way I was referred to a physio because of my chronic arthritis in my hips but was discharged the second time I went as I’d been given a wheeler and an exercise chart with lots of hip exercises you do on the floor. It didn’t matter that I can’t even bend down to touch my feet, or even sit on the floor as I can’t then get up. Our magnificent and caring NHS deemed me treated and dealt with.
My late husband had a very bad hernia during the pandemic. He was given a telephone appointment booked three weeks later than when he spoke to the receptionist despite saying it was a hernia. When he was seen by the GP he didn’t refer him for surgery saying they don’t do that now as the waiting lists were so long etc etc and it might not be of benefit. But he could have it done privately of course. He died with it still untreated, from an unrelated cause.
I am bitter concerning the NHS, with good reason I believe.

MissAdventure Mon 16-May-22 15:54:36

Purely anecdotal, (the same as everyone else who is talking about their own or a family members wxperience) but my girls care left a whole lot to be desired.

volver Mon 16-May-22 15:51:17

I know virtually nothing about the NHS but I know about running organisations.

In my experience, its the middle management who make the place work. The guys at the top getting the big bucks set the tone, and the guys at the coalface doing what the public see as "work" do work very hard to just keep standing still.

But the people who actually make the place run on a day to day basis are the middle managers. The people who actually try to get enough people on every shift are the middle managers. The people who are responsible for the effective definition and implementation of new processes and new equipment are middle managers.

There is a myth put about that it can only be a good thing to get rid of middle managers. Whereas in fact, getting rid of middle managers is what makes the system fall apart.

DaisyAnne Mon 16-May-22 15:48:54

BeEmerald

Ah DaisyAnne I can assure you that any stick I got hold of at the wrong end wasn’t intentional. It’ll be because I can’t see that well as my cataracts aren’t deemed bad enough to operate on, although if I pay privately suddenly and miraculously they definitely need removing urgently smile

So your choice is wait - not great I'm sure - or go privately. It that seems a better solution then why not do that?

HousePlantQueen Mon 16-May-22 15:48:37

Urmstongran

Exasperating isn’t it BeEmerald? Possibly the same surgeons too. But working under different management guidelines. Years ago people were told cataracts had to be ‘ripe’ enough for surgery. A fallacy according to my optometrist.

Techniques have advanced, all those staff in the NHS who are not "doctors or nurses" have been doing research on treatment for cataracts you know. The big problem now is having the funding to do it, but people will keep voting in a party who are slowly privatising the NHS.

Kate1949 Mon 16-May-22 15:43:57

I would never criticise the NHS. My goodness we owe them so much. My husband's care during treatment for cancer was outstanding. When my young nephew had leukemia they did their best although unfortunately he didn't make it. A couple of months ago my brother had a severe stroke, followed by a heart attack. Thanks to the NHS he is virtually his old self.
I believe it's the management that needs sorting out. Too many layers. It's just my opinion obviously.