Labour will table an amendment to the Queen's Speech calling for a windfall tax on the profits of energy companies.

Of course. This thread is straying far from the windfall tax but the argument will arise in the debate today about leaving the money with oil companies to invest in forward technologies, although as I mentioned upthread, BP have said that a windfall tax would not affect their current plans. Last year they announced a blue hydrogen project on Teeside but I believe the emissions could still be high:

www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/news-and-insights/press-releases/bp-plans-uks-largest-hydrogen-project.html

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ese3.956

So I rather like this explainer from global energy & climate innovation editor Vijay Vaitheeswaran about producing hydrogen from green energy.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkX-H24Chfw

OakDryad

I think recycling initiatives are still in their infancy. There are schemes to collect the aluminium, copper and glass elements. There's also a French start up called ROSI who have developed technologies to recover the silicon and silver but I am struggling to find any information about other elements. The amount of lead and cadmium content is relative small and I believe cadmium is only used in specific kinds of solar which have only a small market share.

That's somewhere the UK should be investing, isn't it? Recycling.

We can't afford to be using up the world's resources and then tossing them into landfill when the item that contains them is no longer has a use. And that's before we consider the dangers of doing so...

And we shouldn't be leaving it to 'the market' to do the investment, either...

Apologies. I got the name wrong! ?

Oh, dammit! Pressed 'post' instead of 'preview'

All I meant to add was:

It's always those damn tories, isn't it?

Yet it was an arch tory, Harold MacMillan, who warned of selling the family silver in the Thatcher era. How right he was..

^The Rough storage facility, owned by Centrica, the parent company of British Gas, provided 70% of the UK gas storage capacity for more than 30 years before it shut in 2017 following a government decision not to subsidise the costly maintenance and upgrades needed to keep the site going.^

Ed Conway explainer:

news.sky.com/story/the-surreal-but-also-real-problem-of-britains-gas-glut-12614797

We can blame this:

www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/24/how-uk-energy-policies-have-left-britain-exposed-to-winter-gas-price-hikes

The Rough storage facility, owned by Centrica, the parent company of British Gas, provided 70% of the UK gas storage capacity for more than 30 years before it shut in 2017 following a government decision not to subsidise the costly maintenance and upgrades needed to keep the site going.

For decades the UK had been able to avoid investment in costly storage in favour of tapping its domestic North Sea reserves for gas on demand. So why did the UK believe it could continue to do without even as those reserves declined?

In 2013, the then energy minister Michael Fallon said the decision to allow Rough to close would save the UK £750m over 10 years. Instead, a diverse range of energy sources would ensure the public received “reliable supplies of electricity and gas at minimum cost”.

Ha! Good old Michael Fallon, subsequently shuffled to a position as Secretary of State for Defence and who resigned from post in 2017 after being outed for sexual misconduct.

Grandmabatty

'Something seriously odd is afoot in natural gas markets.
There's a BIG glut of gas in the UK.
Wholesale gas prices are the lowest in 18 months.
There is so much gas no-one is quite sure what to do with it
Yet far from falling, household gas bills are heading even higher.'
Ed Downey on twitter.

Because they bought the gas at a much higher price a few months ago.

I think recycling initiatives are still in their infancy. There are schemes to collect the aluminium, copper and glass elements. There's also a French start up called ROSI who have developed technologies to recover the silicon and silver but I am struggling to find any information about other elements. The amount of lead and cadmium content is relative small and I believe cadmium is only used in specific kinds of solar which have only a small market share.

volver

Sorry, I am taking this thread away from the topic that DaisyAnne started it with, but this is important.

Recycling solar panels or wind turbines to extract the re-usable parts is a world away from trying to decide what to do with a uranium rod that will kill you slowly and horribly if you spend more than 20 minutes standing next to it. And which will continue to be lethal for a few thousand years.

Totally with you on this volver

Sorry, I am taking this thread away from the topic that DaisyAnne started it with, but this is important.

Recycling solar panels or wind turbines to extract the re-usable parts is a world away from trying to decide what to do with a uranium rod that will kill you slowly and horribly if you spend more than 20 minutes standing next to it. And which will continue to be lethal for a few thousand years.

Oops I’m was missed from beginning of my post.

Just posting the blatantly obvious volver ???

Not nuclear rods.

Please not nuclear rods

We did all this at the weekend ?

www.gransnet.com/forums/news_and_politics/1310335-Nuclear-powers-a-good-thing-It-will-only-make-your-bills-go-up-a-little-bit

'Something seriously odd is afoot in natural gas markets.
There's a BIG glut of gas in the UK.
Wholesale gas prices are the lowest in 18 months.
There is so much gas no-one is quite sure what to do with it
Yet far from falling, household gas bills are heading even higher.'
Ed Downey on twitter.

MaizieD I agree with the solar water heaters, we had these in our family home in Spain, far more efficient than the hit and miss electricity supply there 30 years ago.

The issue is what happens to solar panels once they no longer work? Most solar manufacturers claim their panels will last for about 25 years but what happens after that? Solar panels contain toxins such as lead and cadmium which if panels go to landfill will leach in soil. There is a real concern that retired solar panels from both domestic and the much larger solar farms will eventually overrun future landfill.

Are they not extractable for recycling, OakDryad?

OakDryad wind turbines, nuclear rods all have a limited lifespan, maybe it’s time to look at recycling in more detail?

GrannyGravy13

We have solar panels and even in the depth of winter receive a cheque for the excess energy which they have produced and we have not used.

Why are new houses, factories in fact any new buildings not automatically having solar panels installed as standard, I would go as far as saying compulsory?

Not the full solution but certainly a large step in the right direction.

I would say exactly the same as you, GG13. I'd also say that solar water heating panels should be standard, too. (I've said this on more than one thread recently )

It's an extension of DaisyMay's suggestion, isn't it? Local production. And it's a bit like reverting to the 19thC when local authorities started providing utilities for the occupants of their areas.

The issue is what happens to solar panels once they no longer work? Most solar manufacturers claim their panels will last for about 25 years but what happens after that? Solar panels contain toxins such as lead and cadmium which if panels go to landfill will leach in soil. There is a real concern that retired solar panels from both domestic and the much larger solar farms will eventually overrun future landfill.

BP have said a windfall tax will not affect their investment programme. Former BP CEO Lord Browne has said prolonged high prices make windfall taxes justifiable.

I see it in very simplistic terms. If an energy company has predicted annual profits of 10bn, planned to pay 5bn to shareholders and invest 5bn in renewable technologies but sudden makes 15bn simply off the back of market volatility - then it can and should pay more into the Exchequer.

Much of this price surge is to do with trader speculation as well as geopolitical events, so I’d go further and add a windfall tax on trader bonuses. Last year, 400 Vitoil executives in London were each paid bonuses of more than $7million off the back of pandemic volatility. One can only imagine what their bonuses might be for 2022.

A one-off 50% tax on bankers' bonuses in 2009 was imposed in 2009 under Gordon Brown with anti avoidance measures attached. In 2013 Tories voted solidly against reinstating it so whether they would oppose a tax on oil traders' bonuses is moot and hasn't, to my knowledge, been suggested yet ... but it should.

We have solar panels and even in the depth of winter receive a cheque for the excess energy which they have produced and we have not used.

Why are new houses, factories in fact any new buildings not automatically having solar panels installed as standard, I would go as far as saying compulsory?

Not the full solution but certainly a large step in the right direction.

DiamondLily

A good idea, but we need to become completely self reliant on energy.

Those wind turbines aren't enough, so there will need to be alternatives..

I would also like to see the utility providers renationalised.

Privatisation just hasn't worked, because of profiteering.?

I don't believe in renationalising Diamond Lily but then I don't believe in "Big State" any more than I believe in "Virtually No State".

I would like to see a system of localised provision that can be fed into the grid when excess was available. Smaller groups are likely to take greater ownership of the issues and actually provide for themselves and their neighbours, in my view.

But first the debate - if it is permitted to get that far.

A good idea, but we need to become completely self reliant on energy.

Those wind turbines aren't enough, so there will need to be alternatives..

I would also like to see the utility providers renationalised.

Privatisation just hasn't worked, because of profiteering.?

It’s a good short term solution to a long term problem.

The long term problem of where the U.K.’s energy will come from in future urgently needs planning and sorting out.

Yes, that would be a very good idea, and I would be pleased if some Conservative MPs felt able to flex their compassionate muscles. I am sure that some have found some developments in their party hard to swallow.