Cambridge University astrophysicist loses Esa project role over Brexit row

Urmstongran

No, it was more to highlight the fact that these migrants prefer the UK to France or other parts of Europe Zonne. In some eyes we must be better.

But they don't! France and other countries accept far more migrants than the UK. It's not a "fact" at all.

And the funding, which supports all kinds of related jobs, is also heading to the rest of the world.

There are certainly plenty of opportunities around the world for astrophysicists and all sorts of graduates from UK universities.

The point is that Universities don't get to be Centres of Excellence any more by staying in glorious isolation and saying "we're in the top 10 you know". In subjects such as Astrophysics and all other sciences I know of, excellence comes from international collaboration. Until Brexit, collaboration with European universities wasn't even in question. It's what we did, and we led the way in many projects. And of course its not only universities that are Centres of Excellence. There are research entities that are not university based.

So right now, we have excellence in a lot of areas, and your relation is no doubt a beneficiary of that. But he has gone overseas, and who can blame him? So while the populace bang on about politics and the "pettiness of the EU", we're losing our place in the world.

If all the excellent graduates go overseas, then no matter how excellent a University is now, its not going to stay that way.

Call it pettiness if you like Baggs in fact I may even agree with you in a limited way.

But these so-called 'guillotine clauses' have always been part of EU agreements and were supported by the UK government right until the minute we left. If anyone had been paying attention they would have known that this would happen, but of course no-one was.

Switzerland were excluded from one of the previous research programmes for failing to implement freedom of movement to Croatian citizens, and this with the full support of the UK.

Oops! Redundant e

volver

Baggs

Let's just say my Cambridge alumnus astrophysicist relative has not been held back by EU regs. He even got a post-doc in an EU university after the Big B. He's also been studying and is studying astrophysics in two US unversities.

Cutting off nose to spite face comes to mind with regard to the EU Commission on this subject. UK is a leader in space science, not a tagger-alonger.

So your Cambridge alumnus astrophysicist relative isn't in the UK then?

^Which is the point^

It's not my point, V. My point is that there are plenty of opportunities for Cambridge astrophysicists throught the Rest Of The World, including the UK, regardless of pettiness from the EU Commission. Note that it is the EU Commission that I think at fault, not universities in the EU.

Cambridge is in the top five of world universities. I think the highest EU one is Bonne at thirty-third though I haven't checked recently.

Baggs

Let's just say my Cambridge alumnus astrophysicist relative has not been held back by EU regs. He even got a post-doc in an EU university after the Big B. He's also been studying and is studying astrophysics in two US unversities.

Cutting off nose to spite face comes to mind with regard to the EU Commission on this subject. UK is a leader in space science, not a tagger-alonger.

So your Cambridge alumnus astrophysicist relative isn't in the UK then?

Which is the point

Baggs

^It’s not a co-ordinating role^

Beg your pardon, V, but the OP and the Guardian article said it is.

And I've explained what that means.

Urmstongran

Ah but you’d miss your boy GagaJo. He is the light of your life and the reason you returned, as you told us. Difficult choices have to be made sometimes but surely he is your silver lining?
?

He was born there. DD and myself had NIEs. I loved the summer there, but the winter was brutal. But, given that being able to afford to have the heating on here now, it may well end up being just as brutal here.

Let's just say my Cambridge alumnus astrophysicist relative has not been held back by EU regs. He even got a post-doc in an EU university after the Big B. He's also been studying and is studying astrophysics in two US unversities.

Cutting off nose to spite face comes to mind with regard to the EU Commission on this subject. UK is a leader in space science, not a tagger-alonger.

It’s not a co-ordinating role

Beg your pardon, V, but the OP and the Guardian article said it is.

Urmstongran

‘Whatever’ if it fits your narrative MaizieD.
I wasn’t being unkind, but hey, take a pop if it makes you feel better.
?

Not unkind, Ug. Just thoughtless.

Oh, missed this....apparently the £6bn is what we would have to pay to still be part of Horizon for 3 years. Which Kwarteng promised a year ago, but apparently hasn't discovered down the back of the sofa yet. But when he does he clearly thinks its better to keep it for ourselves.

Baggs

It appears to be the coordinating role this guy had that he's had to give up. He'll still be studying astrophysics and Cambridge is a big enough and well enough respected university to collaborate with astrophysical projects elsewhere. I'm sure it already does.

This might be a bit of a setback for some individuals but I doubt it matters that much in the long term.

With all due respect Baggs, you are displaying a complete lack of understanding about this.

It’s not a co-ordinating role, it’s not like he was sat there with a spreadsheet setting up meetings and taking notes. He was the project lead; which means conceiving of the idea, conceptualising what needs to be done, recognising which research groups around the world are likely to have a relevant input, negotiating with them, applying for funding and seeing the project through. He's not "studying" astrophysics, he's discovering for the first time how bits of the universe work. Not studying.

No matter how big and well respected Cambridge is, it’s the 21st century now and big science projects rely on collaboration. So if you are out of the loop, you don't stand on your own, you fall; and the leading groups around the world leave you out of the big projects. So Kwarteng's dopey little $6bn, should it even manifest, isn't nearly enough. We're out of it now. (Ask me how I know ).

As for it not mattering in the long term, no, I don't suppose it will matter to the people who think the professors at Cambridge are studying astrophysics. It'll matter to the economy, industry, education and employment of scientists though. But the Brexit defenders probably won’t notice. Why would they? Blue passports, eh?

And I'm afraid the Torygraph Science section isn't exactly a barometer of how important things are to science.

I believe in Brexit. It’s going to be a slow burner till it ignites. We were in the EU for over 40 years. We’ve only been out (a bit) for 40 months. There’s a lot of uncoupling to do.

‘Whatever’ if it fits your narrative MaizieD.
I wasn’t being unkind, but hey, take a pop if it makes you feel better.
?

Urmstongran

Ah but you’d miss your boy GagaJo. He is the light of your life and the reason you returned, as you told us. Difficult choices have to be made sometimes but surely he is your silver lining?
?

I think that trite reassurances about 'silver linings' to someone who cares deeply about the loss they've experienced because of Brexit are a tad insulting... and illustrative of the complete disregard that Brexiters have for the unwelcome difficulties in people's lives that their vote has caused.

Stanley Johnson has just got French citizenship...wonder why thousands of Brits have been getting EU passports since 2016???

“Kwasi Kwarteng, business secretary, has prepared an alternative plan to spend £6bn over three years on a new global science fund, if the EU refuses to let the UK take part in Horizon. University leaders believe Kwarteng could activate his plan as early as next month.”

I'd suggest that the proportion of our annual EU budget contribution that was allocated to our participation in Horizon was probably a good deal less than £2billion p.a.

(Though I' would have to do a bit of research to prove it)

Brexit is costing us more money to replicate what we have lost through leaving the EU than it would have cost us to remain. The Bank of England currently estimates that Brexit is costing us £440 million a week; a figure considerable higher than the lie that EU membership was costing us £350 million pw that was proclaimed on the famous red bus.

Interesting Baggs.

I can’t find anything in the ‘science’ section of the Telegraph. So either they’re suppressing a topic of massive importance or ... it’s a storm in a teacup.

Hmm.

It appears to be the coordinating role this guy had that he's had to give up. He'll still be studying astrophysics and Cambridge is a big enough and well enough respected university to collaborate with astrophysical projects elsewhere. I'm sure it already does.

This might be a bit of a setback for some individuals but I doubt it matters that much in the long term.

I did not vote in the Brexit referendum.

This was not because of disinterest.

I thought long about it.

I simply could not, at the time, make up my mind.

Some of my family were in the two world wars, one was badly wounded. I genuinely believed, and still believe, that the initiatives of the coal and steel community, then the EEC and later the EU are a substantial part of the reality that generations such as mine and later did not have to endure the horrors of war.

In around 2008 a petition to the Prime Minister in the then petitions system to zero rate VAT on veterinery treatment and prescriptions was answered that this could not be done due to a treaty that came into effect in 1973 when the United Kingdom joined the EEC.

Then later VAT on home fuel costs could not be reduced to zero because of the same reason.

So was the room with green seats just becoming like a local council?

Where would it end?

The fact of the matter is that people knew that, unlike France where each new step requires a referendum, denial of a referendum over the Lisbon Treaty of around 2008 implied that the only way to avoid going far further than as in 2016 was to get out while the opportunity was available, because it was highly likely that there would be no referendum on further integration.

To me, the key factor in all of this was that when the then Prime Minister Mr Cameron went to an EU summit to try to get some arrangement to change things because of problems in the UK he was told no, the four freedoms stood. Had the EU looked at the issues and arranged something, as the then EEC had in the 1960s in the Luxembourg Compromise over the concerns of France, then things might have been different. But they did not, and speculation of alternative histories is interesting but such do not alter historical facts and with such speculations it cannot be assumed what may have followed as other issues arose.

I cut & pasted from the FT and the warning only came up about sharing once it was done. A genuine error on my part FT.

Ah but you’d miss your boy GagaJo. He is the light of your life and the reason you returned, as you told us. Difficult choices have to be made sometimes but surely he is your silver lining?
?

Glorianny

Well look on the bright side- we may have Brexit but we have Liz Truss negotiating with the EU - oh hang on Liz Truss!!!

I haven't seen 'The Room Next Door' mentioned in GN where Michael Spicer plays a spin doctor feeding lines to politicians.

Here's two of his Liz Truss ones

www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX_DwE7nU6o

www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjlsdQfjdm8

It's really worth searching for the one he did on Hancock giving the daily Covid briefing.