Cambridge University astrophysicist loses Esa project role over Brexit row

Call it pettiness if you like Baggs in fact I may even agree with you in a limited way.

But these so-called 'guillotine clauses' have always been part of EU agreements and were supported by the UK government right until the minute we left. If anyone had been paying attention they would have known that this would happen, but of course no-one was.

Switzerland were excluded from one of the previous research programmes for failing to implement freedom of movement to Croatian citizens, and this with the full support of the UK.

There are certainly plenty of opportunities around the world for astrophysicists and all sorts of graduates from UK universities.

The point is that Universities don't get to be Centres of Excellence any more by staying in glorious isolation and saying "we're in the top 10 you know". In subjects such as Astrophysics and all other sciences I know of, excellence comes from international collaboration. Until Brexit, collaboration with European universities wasn't even in question. It's what we did, and we led the way in many projects. And of course its not only universities that are Centres of Excellence. There are research entities that are not university based.

So right now, we have excellence in a lot of areas, and your relation is no doubt a beneficiary of that. But he has gone overseas, and who can blame him? So while the populace bang on about politics and the "pettiness of the EU", we're losing our place in the world.

If all the excellent graduates go overseas, then no matter how excellent a University is now, its not going to stay that way.

And the funding, which supports all kinds of related jobs, is also heading to the rest of the world.

Urmstongran

No, it was more to highlight the fact that these migrants prefer the UK to France or other parts of Europe Zonne. In some eyes we must be better.

But they don't! France and other countries accept far more migrants than the UK. It's not a "fact" at all.

volver

Baggs

It appears to be the coordinating role this guy had that he's had to give up. He'll still be studying astrophysics and Cambridge is a big enough and well enough respected university to collaborate with astrophysical projects elsewhere. I'm sure it already does.

This might be a bit of a setback for some individuals but I doubt it matters that much in the long term.

With all due respect Baggs, you are displaying a complete lack of understanding about this.

It’s not a co-ordinating role, it’s not like he was sat there with a spreadsheet setting up meetings and taking notes. He was the project lead; which means conceiving of the idea, conceptualising what needs to be done, recognising which research groups around the world are likely to have a relevant input, negotiating with them, applying for funding and seeing the project through. He's not "studying" astrophysics, he's discovering for the first time how bits of the universe work. Not studying.

No matter how big and well respected Cambridge is, it’s the 21st century now and big science projects rely on collaboration. So if you are out of the loop, you don't stand on your own, you fall; and the leading groups around the world leave you out of the big projects. So Kwarteng's dopey little $6bn, should it even manifest, isn't nearly enough. We're out of it now. (Ask me how I know ).

As for it not mattering in the long term, no, I don't suppose it will matter to the people who think the professors at Cambridge are studying astrophysics. It'll matter to the economy, industry, education and employment of scientists though. But the Brexit defenders probably won’t notice. Why would they? Blue passports, eh?

And I'm afraid the Torygraph Science section isn't exactly a barometer of how important things are to science.

volver is absolutely spot on. I live near Cambridge and know many people who work in STEM, either for the university directly or for one of the numerous hi-tech/pharma companies which exist round here. They started losing funding very soon after the referendum in 2016 because projects tend to be awarded for three years and nobody could look into the future. Over the last six years, funding has leached to other EU countries. The university is still here (and probably always will be) but the area is gradually losing its advantage as a place with a cluster of the best people in the world. Some of these small labs have moved to the EU because that's where the funding and people are. My partner's son, who is doing some very specialist work, has moved to Grenoble because that's where the funding for his area now is - not Cambridge. Even countries such as Estonia are vying to be centres of excellence for science and technology. The UK has lost far more than £6 billion.

The fact of the matter is that people knew that, unlike France where each new step requires a referendum, ...

Did you mean Switzerland? France doesn't require a referendum for each step. Switzerland isn't even in the EU.

Baggs

It appears to be the coordinating role this guy had that he's had to give up. He'll still be studying astrophysics and Cambridge is a big enough and well enough respected university to collaborate with astrophysical projects elsewhere. I'm sure it already does.

This might be a bit of a setback for some individuals but I doubt it matters that much in the long term.

Yes, it does matter in the long term. Cambridge was co-ordinating the programme and would have attracted funding to do so. The money would have been used to employ post-docs and others. That money will go, so scientists will be looking elsewhere and gradually Cambridge will lose its magnet-like appeal.

Glorianny

Well look on the bright side- we may have Brexit but we have Liz Truss negotiating with the EU - oh hang on Liz Truss!!!

We have a trade deal with Tuvalu!

Both my sons and dil lost work directly due to Brexit, the couple were in the arts and younger son in a city job. They all emigrated to be able to continue in their career paths. Very sad. I hope this country will change it’s outlook to a more global world view again and attract talented young people again, but I think we have more chances of pigs flying. The pig being BJ.

On that note DS1 and dil, said their choice was doubly confirmed with the recent news of defunding the BBC, privatising C4 and the possible abolishment of arts council England, the British Film Institute and historic England. Both having worked or had their work promoted across all of these institutions.
England is on a course to make itself irrelevant on the world stage.

growstuff

*The fact of the matter is that people knew that, unlike France where each new step requires a referendum, ...*

Did you mean Switzerland? France doesn't require a referendum for each step. Switzerland isn't even in the EU.

No, I meant France.

If I have made an error then I need to correct it.

Maybe I am wrong, I think that the French had a referendum as to whether to allow the United Kingdom to join the then EEC.

There was something about the then UK Prime Minister Edward Heath broadcasting a speech in French to the French people.

And I think that the French had a referendum on a change to the EU constitution. in 2005.

So does anyone have better knowedge about this please?

France's constitution requires a referendum on accession. But the UK could have chosen to do this too and any existing EU state can block the accession of new members.

France chooses to exercise this right through a poll, the UK through its elected representatives in the Parliament and the Council.

If you think this was unfair then it was wholly a matter for the UK government, the EU were not forcing it on us. We could have chosen the referendum route too.

growstuff

Urmstongran

No, it was more to highlight the fact that these migrants prefer the UK to France or other parts of Europe Zonne. In some eyes we must be better.

But they don't! France and other countries accept far more migrants than the UK. It's not a "fact" at all.

I don’t dispute that growstuff but some (8k so far this year alone!) still push on for the UK for whatever reason. Maybe English speaking? Maybe because we’re too soft and don’t send anyone back so they risk it for a biscuit. Some say our benefit system is too generous (France). Who knows.

Thank you for explaining, Petera.

Petera wrote If you think this was unfair then it was wholly a matter for the UK government, the EU were not forcing it on us. We could have chosen the referendum route too.

I was trying not to express a personal opinion.

I am suggesting that because people in the UK did not get a referendum at various stages, such as the big enlargement around 2004 and on the Lisbon Treaty around 2008 that the culture of some other countries having a referendum on big EU chnge issues but oh no not in the UK may well have caused a lot of people to think that big future EU changes may well not get a referendum in the UK either, so now we have got a referendum it is effectively the only way to vote in the future referenums that we won't be allowed to have, if you see what I mean. So some people voted Leave in 2016 as the only way to stop future big EU changes.

I did not vote in the referendum because I just could not decide even after much consideration which way to vote.

I remember one street interview in a town in northern England that had voted Leave where a young man was asked by a television interviewer why he had voted Leave replied something like "If things aren't going well, you go and have a look what's around the corner".

I remebre someone in my rural village telling me she had voted Leave because her sister told her there were too many Somalis in Bristol!

I am suggesting that because people in the UK did not get a referendum at various stages, such as the big enlargement around 2004 and on the Lisbon Treaty around 2008 that the culture of some other countries having a referendum on big EU chnge issues but oh no not in the UK may well have caused a lot of people to think that big future EU changes may well not get a referendum in the UK either, so now we have got a referendum it is effectively the only way to vote in the future referenums that we won't be allowed to have, if you see what I mean. So some people voted Leave in 2016 as the only way to stop future big EU changes.

Interesting theory, but polling over the 10 years prior to the referendum showed that people didn't rate the EU as being of particular concern, fewer than 10% thought it was. Interest only rose sharply in 2015/16. I would think that the proportion of people who voted Leave to prevent future changes would be very small. And they would be those who'd consistently had concerns over the years.

(Cameron did achieve rather more in his ''negotiation' than the media made out)

StarDreamer so now we have got a referendum it is effectively the only way to vote in the future referenums that we won't be allowed to have,

I think that's a valid point though I'm unsure that many people would actually have gone a far as formulating that argument. And if they did, as I wrote, it's the UK government they should have been complaining about.

More generally though I really feel we need to trust representative democracy, which is one of the reasons that this government makes me so angry. Votes in referendums are often opinion polls on the government of the day and not on the actual issue.

I know many younger people who think we should move to more direct democracy now that we can easily ask (most) people's opinions directly. This seems to me to be just a modern version of Athenian democracy which fell for several reasons, not least that it kept making bad decisions.

gradually Cambridge will lose its magnet-like appeal.

That I doubt. Time will tell.

I see that some people are speaking of relatives losing work because of Brexit. A sister of the relative I mentioned earlier has managed to secure and keep work in France since the Big B alongside her academic work in the UK despite being completely deaf (she does not even hear fire alarms). The people she works with in France perhaps speak English, or she has learned to lip-read in French as well as English.

Baggs

^gradually Cambridge will lose its magnet-like appeal.^

That I doubt. Time will tell.

I see that some people are speaking of relatives losing work because of Brexit. A sister of the relative I mentioned earlier has managed to secure and keep work in France since the Big B alongside her academic work in the UK despite being completely deaf (she does not even hear fire alarms). The people she works with in France perhaps speak English, or she has learned to lip-read in French as well as English.

Remember what Davis said about the car makers knocking down Merkel's door because they were SO dependent on us and they needed us more than we needed them? Didn't quite work out that way.

Cambridge is hardly representative of all of the academic institutions of this country. But maybe Cambridge is gold plated and people will still stream to it to keep it as a beacon of research excellence. There are 142 universities in the UK and about 75 offer postgraduate physics degrees. How will they manage on reduced research funding opportunities? Is it OK if some of them close because they are not Cambridge?

My DH had a scientific consultancy company that he has closed because access to funding and collaboration just dried up after Brexit. He employed several people in technical roles, including a Spaniard, a German, a Greek and an Italian. All gone back to Europe. They all spoke impeccable English, of course. Even the funding from non-EU countries has dried up because the partnerships he had were under EU agreements with third countries which are no longer valid since "the big B". So that's that then. 25 years of business and 40 years of knowledge, down the swannee. And all those tax and NI contributions too.

I'd really recommend watching the Brian Cox video that growstuff posted earlier, or maybe reading what the Institute of Physics say about Brexit. Fair to say they understand a thing or two about funding and collaboration. Also fair to say they're not quite as sanguine as you.

www.iop.org/policy/policy-statements-and-consultation-responses/brexit-and-relationships#gref

Petera wrote This seems to me to be just a modern version of Athenian democracy which fell for several reasons, not least that it kept making bad decisions.

Drifting off-topic, but that reminded me of something. I remember seeing in a book many years ago a story about Ancient Athens and democracy. The story was that some leader was in the marketplace unrecognised, I forget his name, let him be A here, and a vote on who to exile was taking place.

People wrote the name of someone on something and put it in a large ceramic jar.

A man, let him be B here, approaches A and says that he, B, cannot write, so could the man help him. He wanted to vote to exile A . So A asked B why he wanted to exile A, not revealing that he was A. B said that it was because A was no democrat, that A would not do what the people wanted. So A wrote his own name and put it in the jar.

Does that story ring a bell with anyone here?

Of course, Europe have everything right. Personally I think it’s a shambles, are annoyed we left.

Allsorts

Of course, Europe have everything right. Personally I think it’s a shambles, are annoyed we left.

No they haven't got everything right.

They have got all the research funding though.

StarDreamer Does that story ring a bell with anyone here?

'A' was in fact an 'A' - Aristedes ('the just man'). B was unknown and in fact didn't even have an opinion on Aristedes, but just hated the fact that anyone was called 'the just man'.

Would just like those who scrape the barrel to come up with excuses for Brexit answer why hundreds of thousands of U.K. citizens have got EU passports ( including Stanley Johnson)?
Just read an article by th head of Nat West Bank saying how the city of London has lost billions of investment due to Brexit, so levelling up elsewhere in the country isn’t going to happen as the City are the ones that have been writing the cheques for the Treasury for years, hence why our growth is falling behind everywhere else.

Petera

StarDreamer Does that story ring a bell with anyone here?

'A' was in fact an 'A' - Aristedes ('the just man'). B was unknown and in fact didn't even have an opinion on Aristedes, but just hated the fact that anyone was called 'the just man'.

Thank you, Petera.

I have now found the following, which includes the story.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristides