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Scottish survey on gender recognition bill update

(231 Posts)
Elegran Tue 24-May-22 08:21:09

www.holyrood.com/news/view,gender-recognition-over-half-of-survey-respondents-oppose-changes

"A survey – which generated 10,800 individual responses – found 59 per cent of people opposed the bill, while 38 per cent supported it.

More than 60 per cent of respondents felt the government should not remove the requirement for a medical diagnosis to obtain a gender recognition certificate, though around a third supported such a move.

Similarly, just over 60 per cent of people felt the period a person must live in their acquired gender should not be reduced from two years to three months, while almost 40 per cent supported the change.

Among those opposed to the bill, respondents were concerned that “predatory males” would use reforms to the system to “gain access” to women’s spaces, including prisons, hospitals and refuges.

They also feared the “erosion of women’s rights” and “unintended consequences”.

However, those in favour of the bill said it would provide trans people with the “rights they deserve”, and stated that simplifying the process would make it "more straight forward" and less “intrusive” and “traumatic”.

Some of the people who support the legislation called for it to go further, with suggestions ranging from the legal recognition of non-binary people (those who identify as neither male nor female) or allowing under 16s to obtain a gender recognition certification if they have parental consent.

The equalities committee will consider these survey responses, as well as over 800 longer written submissions, as it takes evidence from stakeholders over the coming months.

The legislation is broadly expected to pass as a majority of MSPs have expressed support for the reforms."

Chewbacca Wed 25-May-22 15:31:49

Time for us to act like adults

Like these?

Footage from a feminist event in the U.K. is going viral today after a trans activist was caught on film physically assaulting a woman. The assailant was part of a black-clad gang preventing feminists from getting near a statue of suffragette Emmeline Pankhurst.

Manchester Speakers’ Corner hosted a pro-woman demonstration today led by vocal gender critical feminist Kellie-Jay Keen, also known as Posie Parker. The event, a peaceful demonstration of women and feminist allies in support of women’s sex-based rights, was quickly derailed by activist group Manchester Trans Rise Up.

The organization sent a number of black-clad ‘security’ guards to vandalize the nearby statue of suffragette Emmeline Pankhurst, draping it in trans-colored ribbons and flags, and also prevented feminist activists from going near it.

At one point during the event, a lone feminist approached the statue, seemingly with the intention of placing a flag baring the colors of the suffragette movement near it. But footage taken shows the woman being physically handled by the trans activists, with a male roughly grabbing her.

Women have NOTHING to fear from trans have they? No loss of rights? No loss of freedom to speak? No loss of female only spaces? And certainly no loss of safety from abuse, violence or physical and verbal attacks? Oh good! We can all rest easy. Just wimmin being hysterical again, I suppose?

volver Wed 25-May-22 15:29:19

Ah well. One brief moment of common sense, quickly subsumed in cut and paste examples of how they're all out to get us.

Keep fighting the good fight sisters. Us quiet little mousey types will just keep quiet in case the men see us, and we'll let you look after our futures for us.

Chewbacca Wed 25-May-22 15:22:27

Or perhaps you mean this kind of wicked conspiracists out to deny women their rights?

Last night I attended a meeting by Woman’s Place UK held at the Mechanics Institute in Manchester. The title was “The importance and future of single-sex service provision in policy and law’. I tweeted liberally from the meeting in support of the speakers, as many others did. This morning I woke up to find the hashtag #WPUKManchester was trending at No7 and I was pleased because obviously women had amplified other women’s voices effectively. As I began to engage with other Twitter users about the event I was abruptly locked out of my account and given a 12-hour ban. A man had reported me for inciting violence and harassment. The sick irony of this is not lost on women.

A protest was organised against the meeting. As I entered it, I was expecting to be confronted by trans activists who had declared on a poster, “Let’s show them they’re not welcome here!’ The “them” being “TERFS”, or as they are more commonly known, women. Surprisingly no protesters were at the door and I entered, hugging women I knew and took my seat. As the Chair Emma Hilton began the event, shockingly loud chants began booming behind her head, broadcast from a sound system outside, and she looked briefly unsettled before continuing. The protest had now arrived.

Fuck TERFs” was shouted repeatedly, amongst many other misogynist and hateful things. Women in the room were brave and carried on speaking, attempting to be heard above the outside mob, but many of us were of course scared because we knew that the potential for being hurt by protesters as we left was significant. Many of us are survivors of male violence; loved ones had sent messages about our safety, worrying about us.

Watching our phones to see what was happening, and judge the threat, we realised that the protesters were large in number and they looked and sounded incredibly angry and threatening. Greater Manchester Police had escorted this angry crowd of threatening men, and some women, through the City Centre to the doors of a meeting where women were speaking about their rights; a meeting they were legally entitled to hold.

We began to appeal to the police from our Twitter accounts to ensure our safety and to act to move on the angry protesters. Women who ventured outside to see what was happening were asked by police to return inside so that they didn’t “inflame things”. The mirror with women being abused in a domestic setting and trying not to “wind up” the abuser is stark.

The really eerie moment was at 9.20pm when the mob went suddenly silent. Women who have been abused know to fear the moment when an abuser goes suddenly quiet. They know to brace for what is coming.

Smileless2012 Wed 25-May-22 15:15:44

Well said Mr. Murray a great example of common sense.

Hope you had an enjoyable time Chewbacca.

Chewbacca Wed 25-May-22 15:03:33

Stop pretending that people on the other side are the enemy who want to deny your right to speak. Stop making on that the people on the other side are wicked conspiracists out to deny women their rights. Have a grown up debate about it.

Like this do you mean volver?

‘Police did nothing’: Trans activists ‘manhandle’ lone woman 20/05/2022

Sky News host Rita Panahi says a group of trans activists – including a group of men in balaclavas – have attacked a lone woman during a protest at the statue of a suffragette leader in Manchester.

Ms Panahi said Police were present and watched the event happen.

“They saw a woman being manhandled by men, including by men in balaclavas, and then they did nothing to stop that,” Ms Panahi said.

“But they did appear later to go and have a stern word to the victim.”

Ms Panahi discussed the issue with author Douglas Murray.

“When you’re at the position of claiming that you’re standing up for minority rights and you hijack a statue of a suffragette, and you dress as black ninjas, and you’re men, and you attack women – maybe you’re the bad guys,” Mr Murray said.

Smileless2012 Wed 25-May-22 15:02:24

Not sure what lies have been told about politicians and their intentions resulting in them being unable or unwilling to answer the question 'what is a woman?'.

Doodledog Wed 25-May-22 15:02:06

I've been out all day (not in hiding), and can't claim to have all the answers about this. I don't see myself as hysterical, or nasty, or shouty. I am a woman who feels strongly about this topic, however, and women who express strong views are often patronised with those terms.

FWIW, my take on it is that there are three distinct issues running parallel but intertwined (if that's even possible grin).

The first, and in many ways the simplest, is 'ordinary' transpeople, by which I mean people who have chosen, for whatever reason, to live as though they were members of the opposite sex. These people are just like everyone else (ie different from some and similar to others) and pose no threat to anyone. In fact, they are probably at more risk from others than they put anyone else at risk. Most people support their right to live as they choose, and I certainly do.

The second issue is around children and the current fashion for them to 'identify' as one of numerous 'genders'. This aspect of the debate brings up several concerns. The safeguarding issues surrounding the adults who have influence over these children, many of whom have been compelled to (or have bought into) following Stonewall's doctrines about gender, the issue of gender itself, and the medicalisation of 'feelings'.

The third 'strand' is the violence and bullying of the TRAs, which is easy enough to find online. Feminist meetings attached, death threats on Twitter, cancellation of people who speak out and so on. The utter disrespect of men who want to 'redefine the boundaries of womanhood' by remaining genitally intact, keeping beards and so on, but insisting that as transwomen they are women is breathtaking.

Underpinning all of this is the idea that gender and sex are linked. They are separate concepts, although in most societies there are distinct links between them. Sex is biological, and gender is socially constructed. Sex is not about a 'feeling' and is not, in this context, the same as sexuality. Gender conformity is sometimes enforced by law (eg in Afghanistan), but in 'the West' it has been eroded over the past century and longer, largely because of the efforts of feminists who have pushed against it. Women working, men being 'hands-on' parents, the unacceptability of things like strip clubs, men wearing cosmetics, women drinking pints - even women's football becoming mainstream - all these things and many more are examples of gender breaking down. People can pick and mix their lifestyle more now than ever before.

To say that if someone prefers to engage in behaviours that were previously considered to be appropriate for the opposite sex then they must be in the wrong body, or that they are or should become a member of that sex is setting back the cause of feminism by decades and potentially further; and this is where the accusations of patriarchy come in. Linking the notion of 'male' and 'female' gendered behaviour to male and female sex is going to benefit far more men than women, as it would suit many patriarchal men if women wore pretty frocks, cooked and cleaned and were financially dependent on them.

It is Stonewall who brought in the slogan 'No Debate' and simply shouted down anyone who looked for nuance. Many people were (and are) happy for genuine transpeople to live their best lives, and are generally 'kind' people who have no desire to discriminate; but they/we have been decried as TERFs, homophobes (??), and likened to Nazis (???), amongst other things (on here as well as in the wider world), and those doing the shouting are the TRAs.

I will briefly mention autogynephilia here, which is another can of worms. This post is long enough, but the term is easily googled, and is responsible both for a lot of the anti-lesbian feeling of many TRAs, and for the insistence of many transwomen that they can't be told apart from women.

I have probably missed things I will immediately remember, but that probably sums up my thoughts on the matter.

volver Wed 25-May-22 14:52:41

Perhaps because of the lies being told about them and their intentions?

Who knows.

Time for us all to act like adults. All of us.

Smileless2012 Wed 25-May-22 14:50:20

No doubt if you did volver and the person presenting as a woman was in fact male, you'd be accused of being transphobic or one of the more unpleasant accusations that have been given here on GN during the course of these discussions.

I remember a thread a few weeks ago and those who were getting worked up and appeared unable to have a civilised debate, were in support of what is being demanded by trans activists and their supporters, and quite happy to insult those who disagreed with them.

Common sense would certainly help wouldn't it and with so much common sense being expressed here on this thread alone, it does make you wonder why those with power and influence seem to be in the main, without any.

volver Wed 25-May-22 14:42:48

Then we need to change it.

If I was in a medical trial I'd be asked many more personal questions than that. And if I didn't want to answer I'd be out of the trial.

Are people surprised now? Had people convinced themselves that I was pro-trans in every aspect, that they had to always be agreed with? Well this is what compromise looks like.

Elegran Wed 25-May-22 14:38:17

I think it contravenes the right of transpeople to privacy if you ask them whether they used to be the other sex.

volver Wed 25-May-22 14:33:32

I didn't answer because I couldn't think of a way of putting this politely. But I guess that moment has passed.

Is it beyond the wit of any researchers to ask the person if they are the same sex as they were assigned at birth? Or would that send everybody on both sides into frenzied paroxysms? Either because they say you shouldn't even be asking because it infringes the person's rights, or on the other side because your sex isn't assigned at birth, its innate.

I remember we had a thread about that very topic a few weeks ago and people got so worked up about it. The one about the form used with women and men which asked if they were pregnant. Just ask the question, it won't be the end of civilisation as we know it. Can't everybody just have some common sense?

Aveline Wed 25-May-22 14:24:36

volver you didn't reply to my post re medical research into women's ie genetically female bodies and how, if this bill is passed, transwomen can insist on being included in research sample. That's a serious reason to exclude genetically male people no matter how much they shout about it.

volver Wed 25-May-22 14:09:46

I’ve never seen anyone on GN who is concerned about women’s rights threaten a transperson with rape and death.

Is that the bar we've set ourselves now? At least she didn't threaten to kill anyone

This thread is riven with unsubstantiated claims and vitriol. That's a word that is often used on GN without justification, but here, its definitely vitriol.

volver Wed 25-May-22 13:48:17

Cathymac

*Volver*. A 16 year old in Scotland has a right to refuse or consent to medical treatment….. so I think it will be the same with this. Unless someone else knows otherwise ?.

Don't think so. I used all my skills as a scientist to Google it. hmm

But again, happy to be corrected if someone has facts rather than supposition.

SueDonim Wed 25-May-22 13:42:17

There is plenty of discourse on this topic outside Gransnet, Volver, with well-reasoned points of concern. I believe you’re a scientist, well used to researching topics, and this is no different, so I won’t patronise you with links.

It’s the TRA’s who are the unreasonable ones, threatening women such as JK Rowling with rape and death. I’ve never seen anyone on GN who is concerned about women’s rights threaten a transperson with rape and death. We all want transpeople to live their lives but we don’t care to concede the hard-won rights women have managed to gain for themselves, which we have already seen happening in the likes of sport and the Edinburgh Rape Centre.

Cathymac Wed 25-May-22 13:40:45

Volver. A 16 year old in Scotland has a right to refuse or consent to medical treatment….. so I think it will be the same with this. Unless someone else knows otherwise ?.

volver Wed 25-May-22 13:14:40

Little as I know about this, this is what I think.

The Self ID bill allows people aged 16 and over to self declare. It doesn't change the requirements over medical and surgical procedures.

Does it? Happy to be corrected.

Cathymac Wed 25-May-22 13:12:13

By reducing the minimum age from 18 to 16 for applicants ,
how can the Scottish Government think that 16 year olds are mature enough to make a decision like this . ?
In Scotland 16 year olds can’t buy alcohol or drive. ..but strangely you can get married. It’s such a life changing decision and the medical and surgical procedures cannot be reversed.

volver Wed 25-May-22 13:09:35

SueDonim

Who is to be the judge of what’s overreaction and and what’s sensible discourse? There’s plenty of good reasoning out there, Volver, if you care to look for it.

What's sensible discourse? None of this.

I feel so sorry for women who live in Scotland and am thankful that I don't.

Scotland's apparently urgent desperation to throw their women's safety, rights and very existence under a bus, is travelling south

Women in Ireland have already been thrown under the bus.

She’s a fully paid up member of the patriarchy.

Not only did she dismiss them, she actually shouted "Shame on you" at an MSP who attended a women's protest rally where demonstrators were protesting against the erosion of women's rights in Scotland. (none of that is true)

Sturgeon ain't no feminist.

Is that all well balanced debate? Is it unbiased? Don't think so.

SueDonim Wed 25-May-22 12:58:42

Who is to be the judge of what’s overreaction and and what’s sensible discourse? There’s plenty of good reasoning out there, Volver, if you care to look for it.

volver Wed 25-May-22 12:29:13

SueDonim

What would be the correct reaction, Volver? For women who are concerned about the effect on their lives to pipe down? Be kind? Just shut up and let men dominate?

This is exactly what I mean.

Pipe down? Shut up?

No. Speak about it like adults and stop over reacting. Stop pretending that people on the other side are the enemy who want to deny your right to speak. Stop making on that the people on the other side are wicked conspiracists out to deny women their rights. Have a grown up debate about it.

Now I'm sure someone will come along and tell me they're not over-reacting and the Patriarchy is on the rise and is out the get the women.

SueDonim Wed 25-May-22 12:24:03

What would be the correct reaction, Volver? For women who are concerned about the effect on their lives to pipe down? Be kind? Just shut up and let men dominate?

Cathymac Wed 25-May-22 12:24:01

elegran. Interesting response from Lorna Slater…no room for negotiation there.

Elegran Wed 25-May-22 11:34:07

I wrote a reply to Volver before I read the many other replies - mine got rather long and much happened before I posted it and saw other's shorter responses, Sorry about the length!