Scottish survey on gender recognition bill update

Transwoman Debbie Hayton explains problems in Ireland's use of self-id of sex.

unherd.com/2021/07/how-the-trans-activists-fooled-ireland/

I'm not sure how the expression "I feel sorry for the women of Scotland" in THIS context can make any woman of Scotland touchy, that's not said in a way of "we'll come to your aid, because you can't fight your own battles", but more out of solidarity for women who could or may be badly affected by having their safe spaces removed. Those who expressed such sentiments I imagine would also be looking on to see how all this pans out from the point of view of it being adopted in England and Wales too. Does it make us patronising to say we feel sorry for example, for the women of Afghanistan or more lately the women of Ukraine, when we feel aghast and horrified at what they are having inflicted on them as our fellow female human beings. My own thoughts are surely when women are put into negative situations, don't we sympathise with each other regardless of borders? I'd call that empathy rather than patronising.

The fact that you cant change sex is I am afraid the debate at its core.

Is that what the Bills about? Or is the Bill about self ID?

Because to the casual observer all this shouting about changing sex and keeping women safe just looks like hysteria. Sorry to say that, but it does. Is there no nuance?

Sweden has cut backon its provision of hormone treatment to young people.

segm.org/Swedish_pediatric_gender_clinics_adopt_cautious_stance

The fact that you cant change sex is I am afraid the debate at its core. Whether you like it or not. We have as a society decided to pretend that human beings can change sex. It was a bad idea and an idea that pretty much no one believes. Some people think it's kind to do this. I dont because there is always a limit for most people where it just isnt true. For some its sport, for some its prisons and for some its relationships. Even those who shout it the loudest dont actually believe it when push comes to shove.

Smileless2012

People can't change sex volver.

I blooming know that.

blooming wasn't the first word I typed.

It would appear that no one apart from you volver regards the concern and support aired here as a personal insult.

Everyone else has probably given up. That's the refrain of the Johnson/Brexit supporters as well isn't it? The irony is not lost on me.

I don't know about this, I don't know about Stonewall, I don't know about any of it.

And none of you are helping.

People can't change sex volver.

In Canada, Vancouver Rape Relief was denied funding because they intended to continue as a service to biological women only.
Is that reasonable?

nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadas-oldest-rape-crisis-centre-stripped-of-city-funding-for-refusing-to-accept-trans-women

It's difficult to have a proper discussion on this, or any topic when some posters resort to insulting those they disagree with by referring to them as patronising and sanctimonious.

It would appear that no one apart from you volver regards the concern and support aired here as a personal insult.

From the link you've provided "and is not always the sole determinant of gender recognition in day-to-day life, such as healthcare, access to facilities, or in personal relations".

A far more sensible approach than the one being pushed by Stonewall and trans activists who are insisting that self identification should always be the sole determinant.

This, I believe is a discussion about self id. That's what the bill is about, isn't it?

So we have people who have concerns about men in women's toilets, men in women's sports, safe spaces etc. Fair enough, that needs to be addressed.

So, when we get into gender re-assignment surgery or, puberty blockers or medicalisation like that, isn't that what the bill is meant to be avoiding? The medicalisation of gender id? Am I missing something completely? Or is all the shouting something to do with the "thin end of the wedge?"

I've tried asking this before on another thread and I was told I'm disingenuous, people can't change sex, yada yada. That's not debate, its invective.

You said where's the hide button volver. I am responding to your words.

What is it you want to know Volver. That European countries are backing quickly away from puberty blockers, that the Cass report looks to be raising very serious concerns about the support offered to gender dysphoria children. That there are no figures available on most of these issues because there has been no follow up and in many cases no categorisation by sex.

Yoo hoo. I'm not actually hiding.

So that bit of calumny doesn't work either. Have a proper conversation about it for heaven's sake. Because yes, you are all behaving like children. Discuss it. Give people who want to understand a break, Its like wading through treacle, honest it is.

It's so tedious when people announce their views and then hide. It must happen about hundred times a day in this debate. And we are apparently behaving like children

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_self-identification

Perhaps someone with an encyclopaedic knowledge of this topic can tell us how its going. Both sides of the debate, please.

there are already 17 countries around the world where self-id is the law.

Which countries are those and how is it going?

I realised it was a third party, Grannydarhair, I was just glad you’d brought it to my attention!

I had hidden this discussion but came back for quick look. What a mistake that was.

There is no way to have a proper discussion about this. There is a specific, accepted narrative about this topic on GN and no dissention is allowed. Nobody must mention the fact that there are already 17 countries around the world where self-id is the law. We are only allowed to mention men in women’s toilets and prisons, and how people who disagree with you are members of the patriarchy and certainly not feminists. We mustn’t ever try to find a way of fulfilling the needs of women and transwomen. No no, that wouldn’t be feminist at all.

Am I feeling patronised? You bet your pension I do. Some posters are sorry for every woman on Scotland (obviously we are deserving of sympathy and not able to stand up for ourselves in the face of the patriarchy), others are told they don’t know what it’s like, but they’ll change their minds when they do, others are told “as an independence supporter, you might be interested to know…” How on earth is any of that not patronising? I have truly tried to find out the facts behind this, but all I see is people on both sides shouting at each other, calling each other names and just behaving like little children who have thrown their toys out of the pram.

And although I know it won’t do my case any good, let me just say this. Sturgeon didn’t shout Shame on you at an MSP who had been at a women’s protest rally; she heckled Murdo Fraser in the Scottish Parliament for saying that the bill was divisive. And then Fraser told her she was saying “Shame on them” to the women at demos. But ach well, that bit of truth doesn’t fit with the acceptable narrative, does it?

Now, where's that "hide" button...?

SueDonim That wasn’t my response, like you, mine was hopefully equally passionate but definitely much less eloquent and a good bit shorter.
FarNorth I really don’t understand women who say they’re unconcerned about this issue, it affects so many areas of everyday life. Fine to think you’ll never be in prison, nor need shelter from domestic violence but do they never use changing rooms, do their g’daughters not play any sports, do they not object to the mis-use of words pertaining to and describing women? Would they want their g’children to opt to take drugs that will make them infertile, give them early osteoporosis, etc.?
I can’t remember if she’s been mentioned in any of the previous threads but I wish everyone would look up Gusset Grips@Gussie Grips (Elaine Miller) on Twitter and listen to her on the health ramifications. She’s a Scottish “fanny physio”, and whilst being very funny, is also deadly serious about the damage being done to young bodies.

Granny23 as an independence supporter, you might be interested to know that many women now refuse to vote SNP, because of this issue, and feel themselves to be politically homeless.

my own straw poll amongst relatives and friends indicated that they were mostly not interested, one way or the other, because the issue had never affected their lives.

By the time you and your friends notice it affecting your lives Granny23 it will be too late.

Have you no empathy with, for instance, women prisoners who now have men being locked in with them?

Have a listen to former prison governor Rhona Hotchkiss :

youtu.be/KpfTBEXqGQM

How dare she (Nicola Sturgeon) sneer at people’s concerns? She doesn’t actually refute them, she just dismisses women who wants answers. She’s a fully paid up member of the patriarchy.

Not only did she dismiss them, she actually shouted "Shame on you" at an MSP who attended a women's protest rally where demonstrators were protesting against the erosion of women's rights in Scotland. Sturgeon ain't no feminist.

??? Grannydarkhair. What an excellent response. Mine was far less eloquent, though equally passionate.

Nicola Surgeon's former SNP parliamentary candidate, Mridhul Wadhwa, is in the news again:

Activists are calling for the UK's equalities watchdog to investigate the appointment of a trans woman as head of one of Scotland's leading rape crisis centres.

An appeal ruling to determine the legal definition of "what it is to be a woman" resulted in a verdict that rejected the inclusion of trans women, leading feminist groups to question employment equality.

Feminist campaign group, Fair Play for Women would now like the Equalities and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) to look into Mridul Wadhwa, 43 who is employed in the top spot at a local crisis centre in the capital that is advertised to women only.

They say that the previous ruling was misused and had led to biological women being overlooked for some roles in breach of equality rules.
Ms Wadhwa, a former SNP parliamentary candidate is the chief executive of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre. She sparked outrage after publically saying that women who sought help at the crisis centre would have their "bigoted" and “unacceptable beliefs” challenged as part of their recovery.

Speaking on The Guilty Feminist podcast in 2021 Wadhwa said: “Sexual violence happens to bigoted people as well.

“But these spaces are also for you. But if you bring unacceptable beliefs that are discriminatory in nature, we will begin to work with you on your journey of recovery from trauma. But please also expect to be challenged..."

*Adding that people would not truly recover from trauma unless they addressed any prejudices against trans people, she added “therapy is political”.*

Last week a ruling from appeal judges at the Court of Session deemed an attempt by the Scottish Government to expand the definition of "woman" to include trans women breached equality law. A ruling in 2021 had backed the government, but appeal court judges ruled that the definition in the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018 could only cover biological women.

The public board act aims to ensure that there is a gender balance on public sector boards and given the ruling, campaigners are now asking for equality provisions in this instance to be examined.

Dr Nicola Williams, director of Fair Play for Women, has written to the EHRC urging it to investigate the procedure of the Wadhwa appointment. She argues that Wadhwa, a trans woman without a gender recognition certificate, should not have qualified for the position.

She told The Times: "This is an opportunity for EHRC to protect and uphold one of the sex exceptions and prevent its meaning from being distorted."

I would love to know what the sensible middle ground is for the women in Scotland who have been raped, violated, abused and humiliated who now have nowhere to go where they can be assured that there will only be women examing them, counselling them and supporting them in their recovery from male violence.