Scottish survey on gender recognition bill update

the special privacy of a trans person in my view shouldn't exist.
Birth certificates should not be altered and gender recognition certificates (if they are needed at all) should state the person's sex as well as their chosen gender identity.

The legislation we have was set up to get around the marriage laws for same sex couples.
That is no longer necessary so it should be removed.

Secrecy around trans identity should stop, just as secrecy around homosexuality has stopped.

Granny23 thank you for continuing to think about this.

Did you follow the final voting on the Forensic Medical Services Bill in December 2020?

www.thenational.scot/news/18936441.msps-overwhelmingly-vote-replace-gender-sex-rape-support-law/

During the debate on whether a rape survivor should be able to request the sex or the gender of a medical examiner, Monica Lennon MSP said "It seems that some want to prevent transwomen from examining women." as if that was an unreasonable thing.
Yes, we did want to prevent that happening to a female person who has asked for a female examiner.
Surely most people would be horrified that a woman who has to examined because of sexual violence, and who has requested a female examiner, should expect that she might in fact be presented with a male person who claims to be female.

Luckily, SNP must have realised the strength of feeling on this among the electorate and they voted in favour of Johann Lamont's amendment to use the word 'sex' not 'gender'.

In any non-emergency medical situation, where a person has expressed a preference for the sex of a nurse or doctor who will examine them, surely it's reasonable that the request will be met or an explanation given of why it cannot be met.
What is not acceptable is to deceive the patient.

Granny23 It was FarNorth who posted the link.

There are two other videos, of previous sessions. I haven't watched those, but I may do so when I can sit and concentrate on them. My brain was over-heated after this one.

I think most of us accept that when we need medical help and advice, it doesn't matter which sex the doctor is, but I would like to know whether they were male or female.

There is a lot of emphasis on a trans person's right to secrecy about their birth sex, but the rest of us don't have that right - our birth certificates have to be produced at various times, our births, marriages and deaths are recorded in official registers, our passports show our sex. It is a fact that they were once of a different sex to the one they have adopted. That fact has not changed.

That secrecy, and the wide variety of appearance of men, women, trand men and transwomen, means that it is impossible to know whether an individual is a transwoman, with the right to be in any women-only place, or a bog-standard male man, who doesn't have that right. Large organisations and institutions, like women's refuges, prisons, hospitals, surgeries and so on, have staff with the training and experience to distinguish one from the other and the confidence and power that goes with the organisation behind them, when they interact with public.

I have concerns about small dress shops for women on the high street. They don't have the space for a lot of individual changing rooms, so they have one communal one. The staff are usually women, and at the weekend there are schoolgirls with a Saturday job. If a (male) man enters the shop, picks out dresses, and wishes to try them on alongside the (female) women, who will be brave enough to question whether he is there because he is trans, or if he is decidedly male and untransitioned and means to stay that way, and has just popped in to watch women take their clothes off? If I were in that changing room I for one would like to know which!

If they ^are trans, anyone asking the question is invading their privacy. Yet without asking the question, and getting an honest answer, how does anyone know that asking it invades the special privacy of a trans person?

And what about the privacy of women in a state of undress, if any Tom Dick or Harry can walk in on them, certificate or no certificate, because it is forbidden to ask whether they were once of the other sex? You don't have to have a restrictive religion to object to that.

Thanks for the link Elegran. I have spent an hour listening to most of it and become even more confused as to where I stand on these issues. For instance during the discussion re Muslim Women and their 'right' or belief that they will have 'broken' their faith if they allow a male person, other than their husband, to touch their bodies, even within a medical setting. This 'rule' is, of course the patriarchy at work and as a feminist I must object to it. It is as bad as the parents who will deny their children a life saving blood transfusion on religious grounds. I visualised a dilemma, (or maybe I saw it a while ago on Casualty) where after an accident the paramedics who turn up are both male and the husband forbids them to touch his badly injured, unconscious wife.

What to do when one group of people's 'Rights', are diametrically in opposition to another group's????

Some good points were made at this session. I stopped watching before the questions started - I have other things to do - but I shall come back to it.

Here is a link to Tuesday's session in the Scottish Parliament, when evidence was heard from-
Susan Smith, Co-Director, For Women Scotland;
Lucy Hunter Blackburn, MurrayBlackburnMackenzie;
Malcolm Clark, Head of Research, LGB Alliance;
Dr Kate Coleman, Director, Keep Prisons Single Sex;
and then from—
Catherine Murphy, Executive Director, Engender;
Sandy Brindley, Chief Executive, Rape Crisis Scotland;
Naomi McAuliffe, Scotland Programme Director, Amnesty International Scotland;
Jen Ang, Director of Policy and Development, JustRight Scotland.

www.scottishparliament.tv/meeting/equalities-human-rights-and-civil-justice-committee-may-31-2022

So are mine. Just who is it who approves and supports this wholesale relabelling of men as women? Even those who have not applied for and been given a certificate to say that they are now legally women could walk into anywhere that currently is reserved for the female sex and no-one dares ask them to show the official documentation for fear they will be branded as "abusive" and "invading their privacy" and "trans haters"

What about the privacy of women? They will not be able to distinguish a trans woman with a certificate from a Peeping Tom without one unless they risk offending a trans woman. which seems to be ridiculously easy to do.

My DH and his male friends, colleagues and acquaintances are absolutely furious about this daft situation. It's not just women who are angry at this erosion of real womens' rights.

Glasgow 2020. Did it not occur to these men (who were not transitioned) that they were in a women's changing room? I am afraid I am VERY sceptical about them. Note also that the assistant who challenged them after women objected said "I can't stop you coming in" when she could have asked them to leave when they admitted that they were not transitioned. There is a lot of ignorance over just who has a right to be considered a woman. It isn't every man who walks into a women-only space!

www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/18302422.couples-shock-treatment-glasgow-m-s-store-changing-room/?ref=twtrec

Well done Sarah!

She says "The law that makes it possible to offer single-sex services is expressed in terms of permission, not obligation. My central argument is that the Survivors’ Network’s “trans inclusive” policy is indirectly discriminatory: that is, it puts women at a particular disadvantage compared to men, and can’t be justified as a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim."

The equality Act 2010 says ^
"This paragraph contains exceptions to the general prohibition of sex discrimination to allow the provision of single-sex services.^

734.Single sex services are permitted where:
only people of that sex require it;
there is joint provision for both sexes but that is not sufficient on its own;
if the service were provided for men and women jointly, it would not be as effective and it is not reasonably practicable to provide separate services for each sex;
they are provided in a hospital or other place where users need special attention (or in parts of such an establishment);
*they may be used by more than one person and a woman might object to the presence of a man (or vice versa);* or
they may involve physical contact between a user and someone else and that other person may reasonably object if the user is of the opposite sex.
735.In each case, the separate provision has to be objectively justified."

All of this is expresed as "They MAY make separate provision" so people like Sarah, who was traumatised by a male, does not automatically have an all-female place to go to and share her story with women who had lived similar experiences, but has to rely on the co-operation of Brighton’s Rape Crisis Centre Survivors’ Network, which refuses to provide a support group for natal women only, despite running groups for men and for trans people.

There should be as much concern for the trauma that natal women have experienced as there is for trans women who have been assaulted, and there should NOT be a man in a circle for women to share their experiences of being raped by men

Running separate facilities for men and trans people but not for women is just rubbing it in that women's feelings are not as important as those of men, and rape is just something they have to put up with!

'Sarah' is taking legal action against Brighton Rape Crisis Centre Survivors’ Network because they refuse to provide a support group for natal women only, despite running groups for men and for trans people.

www.crowdjustice.com/case/help-sarahs-legal-challenge/

Those men were being transphobic by suggesting that transwomen may look like them i.e. men.

Or maybe not as it's okay for people who look like men (because they are men) to say they are women and to expect to be believed.

Transmen (females) do not usually enter women's changing rooms or toilets .
If they choose to use men's facilities, that's up to them.
If men don't like that, it's up to men to make their case.

They said that they would have found comments they overheard upsetting, had they been transgender words fail me and if I'd been in that particular changing room at that particular time, they'd have had more than my words to find upsetting.

One paragraph in that article is very relevant to something I had predicted myself - a rise in the number of males who do NOT identify as transgender ( who would normally be seen as voyeurs or peeping toms) entering areas such as the changing rooms in women's dress shops in the belief that they will not be challenged and evicted.

As a result of these effects, we believe legislators should anticipate a further breaking down of the social conventions under which males would expect to face some challenge on entering women’s services and spaces. These conventions are already vulnerable. In 2020 the Glasgow Evening Times reported that two men who did not identify as transgender complained to the management of a large department store, after women objected to their using the changing area designated for bra fitting. They said that they would have found comments they overheard upsetting, had they been transgender. The store reportedly apologised to them.

I hope the staff also apologised to the women who had been watched as they undressed. It is a known commonplace fact that heterosexual men find the sight of women removing their clothes to be titillating.

On their website, MurrayBlackburnMackenzie have an article in which they say "The lack of any meaningful difference between the 2019 and 2022 EQIAs strongly suggests that the Scottish Government has not undertaken any further substantive analysis since then, nor fully explored the concerns raised in the last consultation."
murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/05/20/has-the-scottish-government-undertaken-any-further-analysis-on-gender-recognition-reform-since-2019/

Here's hoping that they will pay attention to the views from three respected sources - an organisation representing women in Scotland (who will be affected by this legislation), one representing Lesbians, gays and bisexuals - (who are familiar with the problems facing those not in the sexual mainstream) - and an independent policy analysis collective,with extensive experience in policy-making, research and communications in Scotland.

"The Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee will take oral evidence from three of the nine signatories to the letter – For Women Scotland, LGB Alliance Scotland and MurrayBlackburnMackenzie – at its meeting tomorrow[1st June]"

www.scottishlegal.com/articles/gender-recognition-reform-bill-risks-becoming-bad-law?fbclid=IwAR1eVK-emGJzSVjxV1OlM-jKHOHOldbXNMu63WZxef4HL2l3LVtGoFk-RxU

A better reply from this MSP. A pity he is a Tory.

"Thank you for contacting me about the proposed reforms to the Gender Recognition Act.

A recent consultation on this legislation showed that four in ten organisations did not support the proposed reforms, which include reducing the time it takes for people to legally change their gender from two years to three months, and allowing people aged 16 and above to apply to change their gender.

These consultation responses confirm what we already knew – this is a sensitive topic and opinions are firmly split. We must protect women’s rights and take concerns that those rights are being eroded very seriously. For now, we await the details of this legislation and stand ready to scrutinise each aspect of it.

The Scottish Conservatives will not stand by and allow this SNP-Green Government to push this legislation through Parliament without all parties’ concerns receiving due consideration. There must be a full and informed debate on this issue and that this can only truly be done once we see what legislation is being brought forward.

Thank you once again for taking the time to contact me on this issue.

Kind regards,

Jeremy

Jeremy R Balfour MSP
Member of the Scottish Parliament for the Lothian Region
Rm M3.12
The Scottish Parliament
Edinburgh
EH99 1SP
T: 0131-348-5961
[email protected] "

I think it comes from a culture of unquestioningly following rules without having to think about them because someone else has already done that in order to make the rules.
And now they are being told to follow rules which are nonsensical.

Agreed, TerriBull. The HV I mentioned earlier, who had to record the 'gender assigned at birth' of my friend's new granddaughter, said that this meant that the baby was heterosexual. I wouldn't have believed that a trained nurse wouldn't understand that sex, sexuality and 'gender' are entirely different things, but it seems that this is the case.

Regarding the female who stated she was happy to have an intimate examination carried out by a transwoman nurse. It could be a possibility that the patient didn't fully understand what a transwoman is. Not everyone, depending on age and experiences are au fait with all these new developments. A couple of years ago a friend of mine had to complete a form at work where she was asked to classify herself with one option being "cis" woman she is a well read person but at that time such terminology was not on her radar, I think she wrote something along the lines "no idea what a cis woman is so can't say whether I'm one or not" ⁸There is an assumption that the whole of society are embued and up to date with what is constantly evolving I think that is somewhat of a myth and those people may therefore not realise the implications.

Reply from Foysol Choudhury

Thank you very much for getting in touch with me.

As the Gender Recognition Reform Bill has only recently been published, I am beginning the process of taking advice and opinions on its legal implications and continuing to gather information to allow me to develop a more informed view over the coming weeks.

This is just the beginning of the Bill’s journey through the Scottish Parliament and there will be many avenues for scrutiny in the coming weeks in which I intend to play an active part.

With kind regards,
Foysol

Foysol Choudhury MBE MSP
Member of the Scottish Parliament for Lothian Region (Labour)

Shadow Minister for Culture, Europe and International Development

The Scottish Parliament | Edinburgh | EH99 1SP

T: 0131 348 6761

Twitter: @FoysolChoudhury | Facebook: FoysolChoudhury

Reply from Alex Cole-Hamilton.

Thank you for taking the time to set out your views and concerns regarding gender recognition in Scotland.

The Scottish Liberal Democrats support reform of the existing Gender Recognition Act. The current process is harmful, illiberal and fails to respect the human rights of transgender people. Both I, and my party, believe that it is possible to safely reduce the evidential threshold for Gender Recognition Certificates. The current threshold requires a process that many find to be impractical, unfair and inaccessible. For example, it requires a long series of expensive professional reports.

It is wrong that people still have to hand control of their identity to people who they have never met and it is critical that we establish a simple and compassionate process that supports people to live their lives, free from discrimination.

You may be aware that single sex spaces are already written into law, through exceptions contained within the Equality Act 2010. It says single sex spaces are not discriminatory where they are a “proportionate means to a legitimate aim”. Where clarity around these protections would assist in providing reassurance for those with concerns, this should happen alongside reform. However, to be clear, there are no plans to reform the Equality Act or remove the option of this type of exclusion. Single sex spaces will therefore continue regardless of any reform to the Gender Recognition Act.

As this bill passes through Parliament, we need a debate that is respectful and informed, and I have confidence in the solemn scrutiny of Parliament to get this right. I hope that you will rest assured knowing that I will take your points forward in this discussion.

Once again, thank you for contacting me with your thoughts on this issue and please do not hesitate to contact me again about any issues you may have in the future.

Best wishes,

Alex

Alex Cole-Hamilton

Member of the Scottish Parliament for Edinburgh Western Constituency

The Scottish Parliament | Edinburgh | EH99 1SP and 151 St John’s Road I Edinburgh I EH12 7SD

This doesn't really matter to the gender debate (other than insofar as the whole concept of 'gender' is, IMO, dodgy), but why do so many people now seem to want to share the details of their sexuality with all and sundry?

I'm not saying it is anything to hide; but who cares, apart from your current and possibly prospective partner(s)? Obviously if you are on 'dating' sites or otherwise looking for a partner it is important to make it clear that you are looking for someone compatible, but otherwise isn't it oversharing?

Back to the case mentioned by FN - as I understand it, the men who identify as lesbians are largely in the autogynephilia camp. They are straight men, who also 'get off' on dressing as and being mistaken for women. These are the ones who pressure lesbians into having sex with them, despite the fact that most lesbians are not interested in sex with penises. Their bubbles are burst when they are turned down, as they want to have sex with women, and they can turn violent, as they genuinely believe that transwomen are indistinguishable from women.

I suppose there's a chance that the police investigation could find that the woman did only speak the truth and that Norwegian law is an ass on this.