Speaking the truth about brexit

Dinahmo

volver

I don't think that having an higher education has done the country much good.

I'm using quite a lot today.

Well do you think think that the politicians running the country t the moment are anything other than a waste of space?

Maybe they are in the long tail...

I'm not actually disagreeing with you.

Yes of course there are.

But on average, a good education opens door for you and gives you more opportunities in life. It helps you appreciate what is happening in the world. It is neither necessary nor sufficient, but on average...

I'm sorry, but I can't believe we are having this discussion in the 21st century.

who have had - It's 41C here and too hot to type without making errors. Plus many of the letters on my keyboard have worn away.

volver

^I don't think that having an higher education has done the country much good.^

I'm using quite a lot today.

Well do you think think that the politicians running the country t the moment are anything other than a waste of space?

volver

There's a real misunderstanding of averages in the general population, I've found. Say what happens on average and somebody pops up to tell you that their OH's Grandad was Sheriff of Nottingham, as though that disproves it. That's really good.

But ON AVERAGE....

No, I'm not misunderstanding averages. I did say that there will be many people who could tell a similar story of a family member from an earlier generation who has had a decent life without having a higher education.

I don't think that having an higher education has done the country much good.

I'm using quite a lot today.

I don't think that having an higher education has done the country much good. Just look at the front bench. Educated Tories want to keep things pretty much as they because they can keep all their wealth whereas educated lefties really do want to "level up" . And the latter are the ones who are criticised for being the urban elite.

There's a real misunderstanding of averages in the general population, I've found. Say what happens on average and somebody pops up to tell you that their OH's Grandad was Sheriff of Nottingham, as though that disproves it. That's really good.

But ON AVERAGE....

Growstuff I think that you are digging yourself a big hole. My OH's grandfather was an Alderman and Sherriff of Nottingham in the 50s. His father was coal miner and when a boy he picked potatoes in the fields during holidays etc.

As an adult he started a co-operative soft drinks factory and was involved in workers' education.

He could not have become Sherrif if he was not an educated person. There will be many GNers who will have similar stories (although maybe not Sherrifs of Nottingham)

Typo alert: a = and

It's true that a section of the population does not have high educational qualifications. Putting the referendum aside, it's affecting people's lives because there is a correlation between education a income and health. Compare the average educational qualifications of people in some areas, such as the North East, and the Home Counties and it's blatantly obvious that there's an issue. These are issues which our "social mobility tsar" should be unpicking and addressing.

GrannyGravy13

I think it’s a rather dangerous political strategy to keep repeating that a section of the electorate are not highly educated and that is why they voted a certain way.

It’s certainly not going to garner any votes, and votes are desperately needed by the opposition parties if they want to win seats in the next GE.

Even in the face of facts that show that's exactly what happened? Should we keep quite for fear of upsetting people? Isn't that patronising?

GrannyGravy13

I think it’s a rather dangerous political strategy to keep repeating that a section of the electorate are not highly educated and that is why they voted a certain way.

It’s certainly not going to garner any votes, and votes are desperately needed by the opposition parties if they want to win seats in the next GE.

Who's repeating it?

I think it’s a rather dangerous political strategy to keep repeating that a section of the electorate are not highly educated and that is why they voted a certain way.

It’s certainly not going to garner any votes, and votes are desperately needed by the opposition parties if they want to win seats in the next GE.

It easy to say as virtually no one thought about it 15 years ago but it was way too late once the referendum debate began.

Galaxy

It was also an absolute failure (over years) of the 'remain' position being established and 'sold' to the electorate. Easy to be wise in hindsight but very intelligent people allowed a narrative to go unchallenged and didnt provide an alternative positive message until it was way to late.

I agree. I thought about it before I voted to remain and asked myself whether leaving would solve any of that and decided it wouldn't. I cringed when I heard some of the "Remainer" arguments and wanted to shout out "Listen to these people! Just listen and do something about the grievances before they commit hari-kari". As you say "too late now". It happened. We are where we are and somehow we have to build bridges (not across the Irish Sea) and find the least bad solution.

Galaxy

But education doesn't seem to be particularly useful when it comes to political strategy does it. Otherwise it might dawn on people that trumpeting the message about lack of education is about as counter productive as it's possible to be. Keep doing it though and then look around in surprise when Johnson is voted in again.
There is a debate to be had about the utility of referendums absolutely, but those decisions can be made in a different way via the democratic process.

Being part of the largest trading bloc in the world, which has led to peace in Europe for 80 years, and which countries like Ukraine and Moldova are desperate to join, and maintaining cordial relations with our nearest neighbours, isn't political strategy. Not breaking that link irreversibly isn't political strategy. It's common sense.

Galaxy

But education doesn't seem to be particularly useful when it comes to political strategy does it. Otherwise it might dawn on people that trumpeting the message about lack of education is about as counter productive as it's possible to be. Keep doing it though and then look around in surprise when Johnson is voted in again.
There is a debate to be had about the utility of referendums absolutely, but those decisions can be made in a different way via the democratic process.

I'm not trumpeting any message, but it's a fact and you can't change that. Maybe we should be looking at why the tendency to vote leave increased with age. From memory, I think the tipping point was about 45 years.

As far as educational qualifications are concerned, it's likely that those with lower qualifications do the kind of jobs which are most affected by an influx of immigrants who might be more highly skilled, but are willing to work for lower wages. Moreover, they possibly live in the kind of housing where there's pressure from immigrants looking for low cost housing. It's also likely that they feel they have no control over national politics, never mind pan-European politics.

There are issues which should have been addressed long before anybody came up with the idea of a referendum. Brexit hasn't solved any of them - and is unlikely to.

Too late.

It was also an absolute failure (over years) of the 'remain' position being established and 'sold' to the electorate. Easy to be wise in hindsight but very intelligent people allowed a narrative to go unchallenged and didnt provide an alternative positive message until it was way to late.

I find it particularly galling when political parties take this stance and I am afraid the Lib dems and at times Labour have been guilty of this. What happens on internet forums is probably irrelevant but if political parties do it its catastrophic.

FWIW I think the situation is more complex than suggested by volver. The article posted by Jackiest gives some of the reasons those with lower educational qualifications were more likely to vote to leave.

Age was also a big factor and that's linked with educational qualifications because older people are less likely to have had the opportunities to gain higher level qualifications.

But education doesn't seem to be particularly useful when it comes to political strategy does it. Otherwise it might dawn on people that trumpeting the message about lack of education is about as counter productive as it's possible to be. Keep doing it though and then look around in surprise when Johnson is voted in again.
There is a debate to be had about the utility of referendums absolutely, but those decisions can be made in a different way via the democratic process.

Galaxy

And? So what. Do you think people with less education shouldnt vote. What purpose do you think this serves.

No, I don't think that at all. However, it's been shown many times to be true. I was responding to the poster who denied it. How people respond to facts is up to them, but I don't think hiding facts is a sign of a healthy society.