Speaking the truth about brexit

Galaxy

And? So what. Do you think people with less education shouldnt vote. What purpose do you think this serves.

It shows me that people who were better educated might on average be considered to be better at understanding complex situations. Its not an either/or of course, some people who consider themselves not to be educated, are very clever people and can work out situations carefully. Some educated people don't have the sense they were born with.

But generally, the higher the level of education a person has, the more likely they are to be able to solve complex problems involving international relations, economics, geopolitics and so on. The more likely they are to understand that there is a link between them voting for Brexit and the potential collapse of the situation in Northern Ireland.

We often hear that they knew what they were voting for, but then we see headlines about how the Europeans are being given preferential treatment at passport queues in airports.

So, it should help us to understand that some decisions are too big to be left to the populace. If the country wanted out of the EU, so be it. If they want out but think that we can still have all the benefits of the club, they are not thinking this through. It may offend some people to hear it, but more educated people are more likely to work that out. That's why we get educated.

And? So what. Do you think people with less education shouldnt vote. What purpose do you think this serves.

Grwostuff

This is an article by the BBC that may help.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38762034

Janet12

growstuff
"It is a fact that those who voted to leave had, on average, lower educational qualifications and were older than those who voted to remain. If you want to see a fact as a criticism, that's your business. It's also a fact that there was dog whistle racism (and even blatant racism) amongst some of those who voted to leave."

FACTS aren’t always black-and-white. Data may support both sides of an argument. Have you heard of confirmation bias? We all tend to consider our own knowledge and opinions as better informed, more objective, and more effective as compared to those of others which makes it difficult to focus on refuting evidence over conforming evidence. If it helps you to believe that all people who supported Brexit are racist and poorly educated that is your business or perhaps you could take a look at some arguments and evidence that don’t support your preconceptions.

It doesn't help me to do anything!

Maybe you would care to produce some data or other evidence which doesn't support the facts I've stated.

If you can, I'm happy to be corrected. However, I have never once seen any evidence that there wasn't a correlation between educational qualifications and the way people voted. Incidentally, I don't believe I ever wrote anything about being racist.

MayBee70

No one has said ‘all people’ . But surely it’s a fact that vote leave tapped into racism to win votes.

Not specifically racist, certainly xenophobic.

^ If it helps you to believe that all people who supported Brexit are racist and poorly educated...^

That is not what growstuff said. Her words are in the excerpt from her post that you posted.

You have immediately put your own indignant spin on it by using the word 'all', which has a completely different meaning from 'on average'.

No, really Janet12. Time after time surveys and research have shown that people who voted for Brexit, on average, were less well educated than those who voted to Remain.

That's not the same as "everybody who voted for Brexit is racist and poorly educated". Perhaps you could take the time to consider that.

In the meantime, do you have any evidence that refutes the research I'm about to post?

www.researchgate.net/publication/334785287_Educational_attainment_and_the_Brexit_vote

www.statista.com/statistics/572613/eu-referendum-decision-by-highest-educational-attainment-uk/

www.statsguy.co.uk/brexit-voting-and-education/

No one has said ‘all people’ . But surely it’s a fact that vote leave tapped into racism to win votes.

growstuff
"It is a fact that those who voted to leave had, on average, lower educational qualifications and were older than those who voted to remain. If you want to see a fact as a criticism, that's your business. It's also a fact that there was dog whistle racism (and even blatant racism) amongst some of those who voted to leave."

FACTS aren’t always black-and-white. Data may support both sides of an argument. Have you heard of confirmation bias? We all tend to consider our own knowledge and opinions as better informed, more objective, and more effective as compared to those of others which makes it difficult to focus on refuting evidence over conforming evidence. If it helps you to believe that all people who supported Brexit are racist and poorly educated that is your business or perhaps you could take a look at some arguments and evidence that don’t support your preconceptions.

MaizieD

^That won’t satisfy all Unionists because the existence of red and green lanes imply a border.^

Are you getting Unionists and Nationalists mixed up, Katie59?

Unionists would be fine with a border. It's the Nationalists who wouldn't.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/pan-unionist-legal-challenge-to-ni-protocol-listed-for-hearing-at-supreme-court-in-london-41757320.html

Maybe some Unionists are also Nationalists

The EU have also stated that a green/red lane may work

That won’t satisfy all Unionists because the existence of red and green lanes imply a border.

Are you getting Unionists and Nationalists mixed up, Katie59?

Unionists would be fine with a border. It's the Nationalists who wouldn't.

This is just my opinion and not based on any provable facts whatsoever...

The constituency where my parents live, and where I grew up, bucked the trend in Scotland by voting to Leave. There is a large proportion of fishermen in that constituency. They have subsequently been sold down the river by the Government in the deal with Brussels. They've returned a Tory MP who has recently voted for Johnson to stay in post, and Douglas Ross is welcomed with open arms when he visits the local fish market.

There's nowt as queer as folk.

Katie59

The fishermen were misled by the lies just like the rest of us, they believed that the UK would get preferential treatment over EU members - cherry picking.

It was never going to happen and didn’t

Some of us weren’t misled by those lies, though. But they were branded project fear.

Obviously the EU does not like the new proposals but the Red and Green lanes could work, it is more or less what has been happening for since 2021.
You are never going to stop smuggling entirely and I’m sure the Irish are discretely monitoring goods going south. Many goods have place of origin and traceable documents that can be verified.

That won’t satisfy all Unionists because the existence of red and green lanes imply a border.

Interesting article in The Guardian this morning by Fintan O’Toole.

The government is using what is known as the Darvo strategy in attacking the NI protocol written by Johnson.

D - deny the flagrant breach of international law
A - attack the very thing you are purporting to defend - in this case the political and economic stability of NI
RVO - reverse victim and offender - blame others - in this case the EU - for the known consequences of your own choices.

happycatholicwife1

Question: has brexit worked out for the fisherman the way they thought it would? Is anyone openly happy about it?

99% of them are really struggling.

The fishermen were misled by the lies just like the rest of us, they believed that the UK would get preferential treatment over EU members - cherry picking.

It was never going to happen and didn’t

happycatholicwife1

Question: has brexit worked out for the fisherman the way they thought it would? Is anyone openly happy about it?

Apologies for posting again but in case you missed it, here are the fishermen (subtitles are available)

www.arte.tv/fr/videos/104796-002-A/arte-regards-brexit-la-frustration-des-pecheurs-britanniques/

Of course this is a FR/DE channel so someone will be along in a moment to tell you to ignore it.

Katie59

growstuff

the UK Brexit plan was to take advantage of cheaper imports

Do you honestly think there was a "Brexit plan"?

I would bet anything that if you'd asked people in 2016 why they were voting to leave, the vast majority wouldn't have come up with cheaper imports as a reason.

The plan - such as it was or is, that we make more beneficial trade deals outside the EU, freed from EU regulations and stopping cheap labour from overseas.

Or what did you think the plan was.

I don't think there was a plan, was there? That was just more of the lies that the Leave campaign spread around. Pie in the sky with a free unicorn thrown in for good measure.

Question: has brexit worked out for the fisherman the way they thought it would? Is anyone openly happy about it?

My decision to vote remain was for a number of reasons.

I did/do think that it’s democracy has a credibility gap, but is not as bad as the detractors like to make out.

I also think that countries like Germany, France and certainly the U.K. when a member had excessive influence in decisions and the construction of the rules.

However, what made me vote remain, was primarily because I could see the absolute advantage business has. It has access to the biggest customer base in the world that allows free movement of supply, capital and people. In fact a capitalist paradise?. Membership raised our GDP year on year. That is why the political left like Tony Benn always rejected the EU.

However, I think many of the issues were/are mitigated by the protection of employees rights, the standards of supply and the freedom of movement, allowing people pursue their chosen career and education in any country.

Sovereignty has never been an issue - that is a myth and nonsense put out by the fraudulent leave group.

Likewise immigration. The U.K. always had choices to control the level of people entering the country who had no employment but failed to get to grips with it. That was a political choice, nothing to do with our membership of the EU.

Katie59

growstuff

the UK Brexit plan was to take advantage of cheaper imports

Do you honestly think there was a "Brexit plan"?

I would bet anything that if you'd asked people in 2016 why they were voting to leave, the vast majority wouldn't have come up with cheaper imports as a reason.

The plan - such as it was or is, that we make more beneficial trade deals outside the EU, freed from EU regulations and stopping cheap labour from overseas.

Or what did you think the plan was.

I have absolutely no idea what the plan was! If there had been one, I might even have considered if Brexit had any advantages. What I saw were various whingers, who wanted something for themselves and believed Brexit would deliver it. The main groups couldn't even decide amongst themselves what they wanted, which is why I decided to stick with the imperfect devil I knew.

Exactly DaisyAnne. Japan has turned out to be a conundrum and has turned macro-economic thinking on its head.

Japan is the canary in this coal-mine. In the 1980s its booming economy struck fear in the world. After the bubble burst in the 1990s, public debt ballooned and deflation set in. Many in the West said Japan’s debt was unsustainable and the Bank of Japan (boj) should do more to boost inflation. In 2013 the boj’s governor, Kuroda Haruhiko, embarked on dramatic monetary easing. The debt hovered around 230% of gdp. A strange thing ensued: no fiscal crisis struck, nor did inflation come near the 2% target. “The standard textbook on macroeconomics needs an additional few chapters—it doesn’t capture the problems Japan faced,” says Shirakawa Masaaki, Mr Kuroda’s predecessor."

...

Debt has not turned out to be such a problem. “What we thought used to be fiscal limits are no longer fiscal limits,” argues Adam Posen, of the Peterson Institute for International Economics (piie) think-tank. “[Japan] has forced people to confront reality: the interest rate can stay below the growth rate for very long periods.” The public debt has been above 100% of gdp for almost 25 years without causing a crisis.

[Source: Economist]