Working class? Don't think that Oxbridge is for you.

GraceQuirrel

I knew of a girl (daughter of friend of friend) who went to Oxford and spent 3 years in her room. Had nothing in common with her peers, no interest in joining any societies or attending balls (as she knew nobody). She still came out with a degree but Oxford and Cambridge really are for a certain set.

In my twenties I had an admin job in an all-male Cambridge college. The intake was from a broad selection of schools and family backgrounds. There was a tendency for cliques to exist among friends who knew one another from boarding school. However, lots of opportunities existed for joining in other groups e.g. college choir, sporting teams, town based charities. (The Chaplain even managed to wheedle me into making a thirty second appearance as a token female in his college revue). I got to know many of the students and they were a complete cross section of personalities. There were shy, lonely introverts from all backgrounds who would have struggled socially at any university. The one thing they all needed to survive was the ability to cope with a very intensive academic regime.

Which is not to say there aren't any obnoxious oiks in Oxford. Of course there are, like everywhere else, but it's not the university (universities I should say nowadays) that produces them.

Surprisingly so from someone who says her grades were good enough to get her a place at Oxbridge.

It's an ignorant comment, using the literal sense of the word, simply not knowing.

That’s a pretty unfair comment.

I come from a council estate working class background. I got good enough grades to go to Oxbridge but thought I’d be ridiculed so never applied. I do not regret it a bit when I see the obnoxious oiks those places churn out

GraceQuirrel

I knew of a girl (daughter of friend of friend) who went to Oxford and spent 3 years in her room. Had nothing in common with her peers, no interest in joining any societies or attending balls (as she knew nobody). She still came out with a degree but Oxford and Cambridge really are for a certain set.

This is interesting, GQ, but I don't agree that Ox and Cam are 'for a certain set'. Quite a lot of people actually go to uni to study and aren't interested in what I'm going to call average or standard student activities.

I speak as one who decided Oxford wasn't for me during sixth form when I was being actively encouraged to apply there. I had a friend (still do) at the university I did go to who had actually started at Oxford but found it didn't suit her and who then re-applied elsewhere. She still got a first and then a PhD and I still ended up doing a PGCE at Oxford.

I was Oxford-based for twenty years and made some very good friends there, none of whom were 'typical' students as far as social life went. We still had great social lives but they weren't university based. Oh, and we all had all been to state schools.

foxie48

For anyone who is actually interested in what Birbalsingh said in her speech this is what "School's week" wrote about her speech and I understand that they are normally quite critical of her!

I am interested in what she said which is why I watched her speech, so I know what she said.

That's a direct lift from her Twitter feed, isn't it? The quoted piece is not referenced or dated and I can't find it anywhere online. The bit about them being hard on her is what she wrote herself.

That's the trouble with encouraging the poor to be educated. We learn how to critique what gets published about those who think they run the world.

For anyone who is actually interested in what Birbalsingh said in her speech this is what "School's week" wrote about her speech and I understand that they are normally quite critical of her!

I knew of a girl (daughter of friend of friend) who went to Oxford and spent 3 years in her room. Had nothing in common with her peers, no interest in joining any societies or attending balls (as she knew nobody). She still came out with a degree but Oxford and Cambridge really are for a certain set.

Grantanow

Working class children (and all other children regardless of class) should aim for the best they can manage given their ability level. For some that means Oxbridge. For others it means other choices which may also lead on to satisfying achievements. The point is to ensure equality of opportunity at all ability levels. There may be political reasons to override that with positive discrimination but that is a political decision.

???

Opportunities for all.

Working class children (and all other children regardless of class) should aim for the best they can manage given their ability level. For some that means Oxbridge. For others it means other choices which may also lead on to satisfying achievements. The point is to ensure equality of opportunity at all ability levels. There may be political reasons to override that with positive discrimination but that is a political decision.

In my experience if you start anything at all in life making it obvious that you feel at a disadvantage for any reason at all, some so-called "nice" people will treat you as a pariah.

Any modern youngster who gets into a good university these days, can be sure that he or she got there due to their brillant exam results. This means they are as good as anyone else in their year, and probably better than some.

They are under no obligation to tell their new friends and acquaintances what kind of background they have, or which school they went to. If they do so, and are treated to unkind or patronising remarks, they should have a polite but dismissive reply to hand.

I started my working-life at a time (1970) when women were patronised merely for being female. I smiled and asked any man who tried that how many Highers and O levels he had? When, as usually happened, he had fewer than I, I asked him what made him feel superior to me?

After the first shock had worn off most changed their tune. Those who tried saying, "But I'm a man" didn't get far with that either, as I pointed out that being male would do him a fat lot of good, if no woman was prepared to put up with his attitude.

I think if any other section of society was treated this way, there would be outcry.

Their loss as the 2 young women who would have been a credit to them, were both very successful elsewhere.

Two young women being very successful elsewhere is not a loss to anyone or any institution. It's all gain.

growstuff

Baggs

"Ms Birbalsingh will argue that social mobility is not getting worse and that the picture is more "complex""

In a nutshell.

But of course there follows a high degree of apparently deliberate misunderstanding on GN.

Hey ho ?

What misunderstanding?

Ms Birbalsingh is a self-publicising cultural warrior. That's what she's good at.

She is most certainly someone who thinks the only way for her school to succeed is to ensure all pupils are embued with small "c" conservative social values. She has, up to now, talked about these far more than education.

In the interview I heard with her about whether pupils should be aiming for Oxbridge, she said there are steps to social mobility that are smaller but just as important. Ms Birbalsingh mentioned a person coming from a background where the family examples were mainly unemployed and the achievement it would be if they become a manager of Sainsbury's. We were then told we need to recognise this as social mobility. What she is quoted as saying is that "success is not just about getting to the top."

My question would be - who doesn't think that?

Although those, who seem to have a pathological hatred of increasingly higher education for all who can take advantage of it, present others as believing you are only bright, talented and knowledgable if you go to University; it simply isn't true. Those who want this level of education for as many as want it for themselves recognise that knowledge and learning can also be gained elsewhere and at different times of life.

I agree with you growstuff. We go back to the "them and us" thinking that is portrayed by those who don't want opportunity for all but simply want a culture war.

I come from a working class background and was educated at a comprehensive school on a council estate. Nobody in my family had ever been to university and it was given that nobody ever would. A woman's place was in the home and there were already enough chiefs, my job was to be an Indian and know my station.

When I told the school careers advisor that I wanted to go to university he said to consider anything possible and to think of Oxford and Cambridge.

The realisation that somebody whom I respected thought that I might be capable of that and that it was even remotely possible for a girl from my background was like a bolt of lightening. It gave me a level of confidence and aspiration that raised my sights from the mundane to the stars and has never left me.

Oxbridge wasn't for me but I never looked back and achieved more than I ever dreamed possible. It's on all of us to raise the aspirations of the young and enable them to fulfill their dreams and potential. It's this woman's job to create hope, ambition and drive not to destroy it. In a role where creating unity should be easy she's failing.

Kate1949

A friend's daughter from a working class family went to Oxford. She was thoroughly miserable. She felt out of place and different. She was constantly sobbing to her parents on the phone.
Eventually she left, went to a different university, was happy and got her degree. I realise it works for some.

Late 60s, one of the cleverest (and street-smartest) girls at my grammar school went for an Oxbridge interview and she rejected them. She said it was clearly not the place for her working-class roots. Early 2000s, one of my similarly gifted, but much quieter students (also maths and science) from a comprehensive didn't get an Oxbridge offer after interview.
Their loss as the 2 young women who would have been a credit to them, were both very successful elsewhere.

At my oldest daughter's Comprehensive a teacher said to them "it's not as if any of you are Oxbridge material," a sackable offence in my opinion. We took her out after four years of her not even learning the French for "and" and sent her to a private school. She got a degree in English Literature from Oxford, is a published author and has a well-paid day job as Head of Marketing for a medical company.

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Glorianny

FarNorth

How about another bombshell?
In my opinion, making nursing an all-degree profession was a huge mistake.

It excludes a lot of people who could be excellent nurses but who are not capable of degree level study.

But people who want to do that side of the work can become health care assistants and fulfil their potential in that role. The point abut a nursing degree is that it recognises the huge developments in treatment and enables those with the ability to provide those treatments.

But people who want to do that side of the work can become health care assistants and fulfil their potential in that role

That is not fulfilling their potential.

Bringing back a more practical nursing course such as the State Enrolled scheme would be a good idea for those who do not wish to take A levels and go to university, incurring huge debts.

Some of the best nurses I encountered were State Enrolled nurses and they had become staff nurses.
They were qualified nurses in their own right, not assistants.

I think nursing associate is probably quite close to this www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/nursing/roles-nursing/nursing-associate/nursing-associate

Yes, it sounds similar to the old SEN.

Thank you, I didn't know about this; a very good idea.

I honestly think she's a bit divorced from reality.

This is what she said last month.

Schools and parents can improve the social mobility of disadvantaged children by restricting access to smartphones, the chair of the government’s social mobility commission has said.

Katharine Birbalsingh told the Association of School and College Leaders annual conference: “If we genuinely want things to be fairer, and we want our disadvantaged children to be socially mobile, the best thing I can do for them is getting them not to have a smartphone.”

The best thing she can do for them. That's what its about. Not low expectations, or glass ceilings. Smartphones. ??‍♀️ I can't believe anyone takes this seriously.

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/mar/12/restrict-phones-to-improve-child-social-mobility-in-uk-says-commission-chair

Callistemon21

Glorianny

FarNorth

How about another bombshell?
In my opinion, making nursing an all-degree profession was a huge mistake.

It excludes a lot of people who could be excellent nurses but who are not capable of degree level study.

But people who want to do that side of the work can become health care assistants and fulfil their potential in that role. The point abut a nursing degree is that it recognises the huge developments in treatment and enables those with the ability to provide those treatments.

But people who want to do that side of the work can become health care assistants and fulfil their potential in that role

That is not fulfilling their potential.

Bringing back a more practical nursing course such as the State Enrolled scheme would be a good idea for those who do not wish to take A levels and go to university, incurring huge debts.

Some of the best nurses I encountered were State Enrolled nurses and they had become staff nurses.
They were qualified nurses in their own right, not assistants.

I think nursing associate is probably quite close to this www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/nursing/roles-nursing/nursing-associate/nursing-associate

I seem to remember that in the 1930s lots of Welsh coal miners sons got to Oxbridge as well as other working class men. Quite a number became distnguished in their adult professions.

When I went to university in the early 1960s, there was no lack of the sons (and daughters) with working class backgrounds at university. I married one of them.

The reason that there are not more workig class students at top universities is that not enough apply to them and the reason that happens is that they are constantly being told by pundits and other stupid people in public eye, how hard it is for them to get into them and that they are bound to fail.

What we should be saying to school leavers is thatthey should have a go, that the more of them that apply to top universities the more of them will get in.

I have a degree in economics. When I was applying to university in 1960, nobody discouraged me from applying, by telling that economics was a male subject, that it was not a subject women studied, which was true at the time, so I just went ahead and applied, got a place and only discovered just what a predominantly male subect economics was when I got there. For most of my university life I spent my time doing things considered male activities, debating, taking part in debating competitions, getting on University Challenge and this followed in my adult life.

Let us tell all our students leaving school that the world is there oyster, that everything is possible for them and encourage them to apply for top universities, apply for top professions. No one can succeed when everyone keeps telling them that no matter what they do they will be faced by discrimination, will find it difficult and so on and so on. I am not denying these things exist, but they are overcome by mass attacks of hundreds and thousands of these students overwhelmng the best universities, best professions with applications of being determined to succeed and not being told they will fail before they start.

This is what my generation of women were doing in the 1950s, 60s and 70s - and look how far it has got us. Not complete equality yet, but a damn sight further, than if we had been harrassed by Jove's comforters telling us how difficult it would be, how we would be discriminated against etc etc. and discourage on all sides from doing what we have done.

Glorianny

FarNorth

How about another bombshell?
In my opinion, making nursing an all-degree profession was a huge mistake.

It excludes a lot of people who could be excellent nurses but who are not capable of degree level study.

But people who want to do that side of the work can become health care assistants and fulfil their potential in that role. The point abut a nursing degree is that it recognises the huge developments in treatment and enables those with the ability to provide those treatments.

But people who want to do that side of the work can become health care assistants and fulfil their potential in that role

That is not fulfilling their potential.

Bringing back a more practical nursing course such as the State Enrolled scheme would be a good idea for those who do not wish to take A levels and go to university, incurring huge debts.

Some of the best nurses I encountered were State Enrolled nurses and they had become staff nurses.
They were qualified nurses in their own right, not assistants.

Of course make the opportunities available but don't focus on only one goal.
Make a lot of differing opportunities available.