Working class? Don't think that Oxbridge is for you.

Pantglas2 good post, success definitely means different things to do different people.

But, 'success' and 'social mobility' aren't the same thing.

(sorry, volver, I've been a bit slow on the uptake over this...)

MaizieD

But, 'success' and 'social mobility' aren't the same thing.

(sorry, volver, I've been a bit slow on the uptake over this...)

If your parents lived in a council house on a council estate for all their lives, and you have paid off your mortgage and are totally debt free is that not social mobility?

No. Don't think so.

I'm not the only snob here, obviously.

GrannyGravy13

MaizieD

But, 'success' and 'social mobility' aren't the same thing.

(sorry, volver, I've been a bit slow on the uptake over this...)

If your parents lived in a council house on a council estate for all their lives, and you have paid off your mortgage and are totally debt free is that not social mobility?

In a word, No.

My parents-in-law bought and eventually owned their own 2 bedroomed semi. My PiL worked on the assembly line at Vauxhall. The house was previously owned by his parents. His father spent his whole career as a carriage painter at a railway works. My FiL bought out his siblings when his parents died.

They lived in a small south midland town.It was not that uncommon for skilled working class people to own their own homes.

H

MaizieD

GrannyGravy13

MaizieD

But, 'success' and 'social mobility' aren't the same thing.

(sorry, volver, I've been a bit slow on the uptake over this...)

If your parents lived in a council house on a council estate for all their lives, and you have paid off your mortgage and are totally debt free is that not social mobility?

In a word, No.

I think that’s a bit harsh. It’s success compared with others from the same background with the same academic ability who haven’t worked hard and saved, and aren’t happy that they have had a fulfilled life.
If however somebody had huge academic or entrepreneurial abilities that were not employed due to to their background it wouldn’t be success for that individual or for society.

My DP own their little flat. Their parents lived in council houses. DP both did "working class" jobs and live off small pensions. Owning a flat changed nothing about them except that they own a flat. They have not been particularly socially mobile. I think it's much more complicated than that.

I agree volver. Success and social mobility are entirely different concepts. Pantglas describes a degree of success. She doesn’t describe any degree of social mobility. Her friends are her childhood friends from the council estate, the same social group. Owning rather than renting your home is not, of itself, social mobility.

Interesting comments on my post and I’d like more detail please on the ‘complications’ involved in social mobility. Is it it solely dependent on academic educational achievement?

If your parents lived in a council house on a council estate for all their lives, and you have paid off your mortgage and are totally debt free is that not social mobility?

No. Just the sense of superiority some people who have bought a home with borrowed money feel over those who rent.

The Social Mobility Commission clearly and simply define social mobilty as this:

... the link between a person’s occupation or income and the occupation or income of their parents. Where there is a strong link, there is a lower level of social mobility. Where there is a weak link, there is a higher level of social mobility.

www.gov.uk/government/organisations/social-mobility-commission/about

I suspect this is the origin of Birbalsingh's statement wtte that if parents have been unemployed and needed to claim benefits and their child gets a job, then that, to her is social mobility.

growstuff

volver

Degrees aren't about training people though. They're about educating people.

Hmmm ... I disagree with that. What are medicine and law degrees, if not training?

I also think degrees are about educating people. This is why I think degrees such as medicine, law, etc should be renamed as Degree Level Aprenticeships. This would clarify the situation and encourage people to take the higher level Aprenticeships.

Although we seem to be getting closer together in our views DaisyAnne, if the doctors I know thought they were being put in the bracket of having "Degree Level Apprenticeships" they definitely kick off

Woah GSM you’ve prematurely jumped on the wrong horse in this race!

Those friends are my oldest friends obviously and we’ve stayed in touch albeit sometimes at huge geographical distance. I’ve got other friends through work and travel, pretty much all cleverer than me, most with degrees although not Oxbridge!

OK folks, so according to the majority on here to achieve social mobility one has to have an Oxbridge degree and change your friendship group to a perceived class which has to be above your roots…

As I said above Daisy, a degree in law does not teach you how to practise law. After obtaining a degree you need to undertake training, call that an apprenticeship if you will, but the law degree itself could not be described as an apprenticeship as it doesn’t train the student to do the job.

GrannyGravy13

OK folks, so according to the majority on here to achieve social mobility one has to have an Oxbridge degree and change your friendship group to a perceived class which has to be above your roots…

No. For goodness sake.

Pantglas2

Woah GSM you’ve prematurely jumped on the wrong horse in this race!

Those friends are my oldest friends obviously and we’ve stayed in touch albeit sometimes at huge geographical distance. I’ve got other friends through work and travel, pretty much all cleverer than me, most with degrees although not Oxbridge!

I think an outdated attitude to degrees is becoming prevalent on here.

volver

GrannyGravy13

OK folks, so according to the majority on here to achieve social mobility one has to have an Oxbridge degree and change your friendship group to a perceived class which has to be above your roots…

No. For goodness sake.

Well if that is not the case, you have not explained yourself as eloquently as you think.

Can we all just stop making assumptions about what other people think and maybe remove the chips from our shoulders?

CaravanSerai posted a link to a governmental definition of social mobility. It doesn't mention friendship groups or degrees. Just read it.

But if its old fashioned to think physics is more academic that golf, then mea culpa.

“No. Just the sense of superiority some people who have bought a home with borrowed money feel over those who rent.” CaravanSerai.

You misinterpret my feelings of being blessed with good fortune as a smugness I don’t have. Do you also do that with those who judge lesser degrees/achievements?

I would love to have been clever enough to have gone to uni in the same way that I’d loved to have qualified for the Olympics, whatever. I simply wasn’t good enough!

The hard work involved in buying your own home when you didn’t have that example growing up is the same for those who get to university or the top of any other tree, IMO.

Well if that is not the case, you have not explained yourself as eloquently as you think.

You might like to read the posts where I have repeatedly said this is nothing to do with Oxbridge. But you probably won't.

volver

Can we all just stop making assumptions about what other people think and maybe remove the chips from our shoulders?

CaravanSerai posted a link to a governmental definition of social mobility. It doesn't mention friendship groups or degrees. Just read it.

But if its old fashioned to think physics is more academic that golf, then mea culpa.

You cannot have it both ways volver either social mobility is moving away from your roots and up the perceived class ladder by way of your career or it isn’t.

You are aware that for the nouveu riche wannabes it will take several generations for them to be accepted and seen as part of the higher echelons.

When I was a teenager we could be split into 2 groups.

Those of us who went to University or college, and those who didn't.

I clearly remember one of those who didn't having a go at the rest of us for being snobs because we thought we were better than her just because we were going to University and she was staying at home and getting a real job and really working hard.

It seems nothing changes.

You cannot have it both ways volver either social mobility is moving away from your roots and up the perceived class ladder by way of your career or it isn’t.

Just read the definition. Just read it. Class now is it? How telling.