Working class? Don't think that Oxbridge is for you.

Pantglas2

“No. Just the sense of superiority some people who have bought a home with borrowed money feel over those who rent.” CaravanSerai.

You misinterpret my feelings of being blessed with good fortune as a smugness I don’t have. Do you also do that with those who judge lesser degrees/achievements?

I would love to have been clever enough to have gone to uni in the same way that I’d loved to have qualified for the Olympics, whatever. I simply wasn’t good enough!

The hard work involved in buying your own home when you didn’t have that example growing up is the same for those who get to university or the top of any other tree, IMO.

Social mobility has very little to do with whether or not you rent the property you live in. After all, our PM is living in a 'tied cottage'; something normally associated with impoverished farm or estate workers... . Living in rented accommodation is very common in other countries; for all sections of the social hierarchy; we just obsess about it somewhat.

Social mobility is about changing one's status in the social hierarchy (the social hierarchy is also something we Brits obsess about too much). Going from farm labourer to lawyer, or machine operator to factory owner...

A degree from Oxbridge doesn't inherently make someone socially mobile. It's the opportunities it offers that are important. If you come from a working class family and are shelf stacking in Aldi with an Oxbridge degree under your belt you haven't been socially mobile at all.

Social mobility is just the measurement between a persons education and employment and their parents education and employment.

I suspect that many contributors to GN reached a higher level of educational attainment than their parents.

With regard to employment, it is nothing to do with the level of income, but generally employment with relatively higher status than others. They tend to be better paid, but not always.

Income levels only affect a persons status in as much as it affects their buying power. Of course the vastly wealthy can also buy political power. But having wealth does not necessarily give higher status.

golf of surfing?

Now there's an idea...

From the poster who doesn’t get a degree in Golf, Knitting or surfing.

I certainly couldn't get a degree in golf of surfing.

I'm sure I could get one in knitting.

I can see that you need to feel that way to feel good about yourself.

That's quite comical, really. Insults now is it? Toodle pip.

volver

^You cannot have it both ways volver either social mobility is moving away from your roots and up the perceived class ladder by way of your career or it isn’t.^

Just read the definition. Just read it. Class now is it? How telling.

From the poster who doesn’t get a degree in Golf, Knitting or surfing.

volver

Although we seem to be getting closer together in our views DaisyAnne, if the doctors I know thought they were being put in the bracket of having "Degree Level Apprenticeships" they definitely kick off

Of course, they would. The level of academic snobbery holds us back in so many ways. I have voiced my opinion on this. However, I can see that you need to feel that way to feel good about yourself. I would not want to undermine that, so I am now, for the time being at least, leaving the argument.

volver

^Well if that is not the case, you have not explained yourself as eloquently as you think.^

You might like to read the posts where I have repeatedly said this is nothing to do with Oxbridge. But you probably won't.

I have read all of your posts.

I also get that getting a degree is more about the individual learning experience as opposed to an end career, apart from the obvious Career degrees.

You cannot have it both ways volver either social mobility is moving away from your roots and up the perceived class ladder by way of your career or it isn’t.

Just read the definition. Just read it. Class now is it? How telling.

When I was a teenager we could be split into 2 groups.

Those of us who went to University or college, and those who didn't.

I clearly remember one of those who didn't having a go at the rest of us for being snobs because we thought we were better than her just because we were going to University and she was staying at home and getting a real job and really working hard.

It seems nothing changes.

volver

Can we all just stop making assumptions about what other people think and maybe remove the chips from our shoulders?

CaravanSerai posted a link to a governmental definition of social mobility. It doesn't mention friendship groups or degrees. Just read it.

But if its old fashioned to think physics is more academic that golf, then mea culpa.

You cannot have it both ways volver either social mobility is moving away from your roots and up the perceived class ladder by way of your career or it isn’t.

You are aware that for the nouveu riche wannabes it will take several generations for them to be accepted and seen as part of the higher echelons.

Well if that is not the case, you have not explained yourself as eloquently as you think.

You might like to read the posts where I have repeatedly said this is nothing to do with Oxbridge. But you probably won't.

“No. Just the sense of superiority some people who have bought a home with borrowed money feel over those who rent.” CaravanSerai.

You misinterpret my feelings of being blessed with good fortune as a smugness I don’t have. Do you also do that with those who judge lesser degrees/achievements?

I would love to have been clever enough to have gone to uni in the same way that I’d loved to have qualified for the Olympics, whatever. I simply wasn’t good enough!

The hard work involved in buying your own home when you didn’t have that example growing up is the same for those who get to university or the top of any other tree, IMO.

Can we all just stop making assumptions about what other people think and maybe remove the chips from our shoulders?

CaravanSerai posted a link to a governmental definition of social mobility. It doesn't mention friendship groups or degrees. Just read it.

But if its old fashioned to think physics is more academic that golf, then mea culpa.

volver

GrannyGravy13

OK folks, so according to the majority on here to achieve social mobility one has to have an Oxbridge degree and change your friendship group to a perceived class which has to be above your roots…

No. For goodness sake.

Well if that is not the case, you have not explained yourself as eloquently as you think.

Pantglas2

Woah GSM you’ve prematurely jumped on the wrong horse in this race!

Those friends are my oldest friends obviously and we’ve stayed in touch albeit sometimes at huge geographical distance. I’ve got other friends through work and travel, pretty much all cleverer than me, most with degrees although not Oxbridge!

I think an outdated attitude to degrees is becoming prevalent on here.

GrannyGravy13

OK folks, so according to the majority on here to achieve social mobility one has to have an Oxbridge degree and change your friendship group to a perceived class which has to be above your roots…

No. For goodness sake.

As I said above Daisy, a degree in law does not teach you how to practise law. After obtaining a degree you need to undertake training, call that an apprenticeship if you will, but the law degree itself could not be described as an apprenticeship as it doesn’t train the student to do the job.

OK folks, so according to the majority on here to achieve social mobility one has to have an Oxbridge degree and change your friendship group to a perceived class which has to be above your roots…

Woah GSM you’ve prematurely jumped on the wrong horse in this race!

Those friends are my oldest friends obviously and we’ve stayed in touch albeit sometimes at huge geographical distance. I’ve got other friends through work and travel, pretty much all cleverer than me, most with degrees although not Oxbridge!

Although we seem to be getting closer together in our views DaisyAnne, if the doctors I know thought they were being put in the bracket of having "Degree Level Apprenticeships" they definitely kick off

growstuff

volver

Degrees aren't about training people though. They're about educating people.

Hmmm ... I disagree with that. What are medicine and law degrees, if not training?

I also think degrees are about educating people. This is why I think degrees such as medicine, law, etc should be renamed as Degree Level Aprenticeships. This would clarify the situation and encourage people to take the higher level Aprenticeships.

If your parents lived in a council house on a council estate for all their lives, and you have paid off your mortgage and are totally debt free is that not social mobility?

No. Just the sense of superiority some people who have bought a home with borrowed money feel over those who rent.

The Social Mobility Commission clearly and simply define social mobilty as this:

... the link between a person’s occupation or income and the occupation or income of their parents. Where there is a strong link, there is a lower level of social mobility. Where there is a weak link, there is a higher level of social mobility.

www.gov.uk/government/organisations/social-mobility-commission/about

I suspect this is the origin of Birbalsingh's statement wtte that if parents have been unemployed and needed to claim benefits and their child gets a job, then that, to her is social mobility.

Interesting comments on my post and I’d like more detail please on the ‘complications’ involved in social mobility. Is it it solely dependent on academic educational achievement?

I agree volver. Success and social mobility are entirely different concepts. Pantglas describes a degree of success. She doesn’t describe any degree of social mobility. Her friends are her childhood friends from the council estate, the same social group. Owning rather than renting your home is not, of itself, social mobility.