Working class? Don't think that Oxbridge is for you.

My DP own their little flat. Their parents lived in council houses. DP both did "working class" jobs and live off small pensions. Owning a flat changed nothing about them except that they own a flat. They have not been particularly socially mobile. I think it's much more complicated than that.

MaizieD

GrannyGravy13

MaizieD

But, 'success' and 'social mobility' aren't the same thing.

(sorry, volver, I've been a bit slow on the uptake over this...)

If your parents lived in a council house on a council estate for all their lives, and you have paid off your mortgage and are totally debt free is that not social mobility?

In a word, No.

I think that’s a bit harsh. It’s success compared with others from the same background with the same academic ability who haven’t worked hard and saved, and aren’t happy that they have had a fulfilled life.
If however somebody had huge academic or entrepreneurial abilities that were not employed due to to their background it wouldn’t be success for that individual or for society.

My parents-in-law bought and eventually owned their own 2 bedroomed semi. My PiL worked on the assembly line at Vauxhall. The house was previously owned by his parents. His father spent his whole career as a carriage painter at a railway works. My FiL bought out his siblings when his parents died.

They lived in a small south midland town.It was not that uncommon for skilled working class people to own their own homes.

H

GrannyGravy13

MaizieD

But, 'success' and 'social mobility' aren't the same thing.

(sorry, volver, I've been a bit slow on the uptake over this...)

If your parents lived in a council house on a council estate for all their lives, and you have paid off your mortgage and are totally debt free is that not social mobility?

In a word, No.

No. Don't think so.

I'm not the only snob here, obviously.

MaizieD

But, 'success' and 'social mobility' aren't the same thing.

(sorry, volver, I've been a bit slow on the uptake over this...)

If your parents lived in a council house on a council estate for all their lives, and you have paid off your mortgage and are totally debt free is that not social mobility?

But, 'success' and 'social mobility' aren't the same thing.

(sorry, volver, I've been a bit slow on the uptake over this...)

Pantglas2 good post, success definitely means different things to do different people.

“Some subjects are academic, some aren't” Volver

Brilliant! That sentence, for me, sums up the whole thread and IMO is what the mobility tsar should have said! I’d add that ‘some people are academic, some aren’t’. I’ve followed the arguments on here with interest and tried to apply them to my and my friends backgrounds.

All five of us born mid 50s, come from the same council estate, weren’t clever enough to stay on for A levels, let alone university. None of our parents did either. We’ve worked in different not hugely well paid jobs (nursing, retail, admin) but all are now retired with SP and small private pensions.

We’ve all cleared our mortgages and are debt free so aren’t we the ones KB is thinking of when she refers to different measures of success?

Whatever you say DaisyAnne it doesn't make a degree in knitwear design intellectually equivalent to a degree in physics. Now or then.

Your arguments are completely false. Why is it relevant if physics degrees are different now than they were in my day? I'm using physics because that's what I know about. But I dare say philosophy degrees, or maths, or economics, are pretty rigorous too and require rather more intellectual thought than knitwear design.

I'm wondering what to say about the "knowledge isn't static" comment. However much physics has changed in the last 40 years it hasn't grown closer to knitwear design.

Some subjects are academic, some aren't. We've decided to pick on knitwear design, and golf, and surfing. All those things are perfectly valid subjects of study, and lead to good job opportunities and people need to know about them. But they are not academic. We need to acknowledge the difference. That doesn't make us snobs, it makes us realistic.

People studying physics today spend quite a lot of time on "electricity"; they haven't moved on to coding instead. Coding is very creative. It's good that children learn it. Coding is a tool to exist in the modern world. But "Electricity" has moved on a bit from your dad's day. Once you're past the basics of electrostatics and Ohms law, there's circuit analysis, electricity generation, etc. Don't tell me I don't know about studying "electricity". That would be incorrect.

volver

I guess I'm a degree snob too GSM. There is undoubtedly a need for people to know the things they teach on a golf or surfing degree, but I am not convinced that they are to a degree level of knowledge.

As for a degree in knitting. Whatever you say DaisyAnne, whatever you think, the rigour and intellectual quality of a degree in knitting is not the same as the rigour and intellectual quality of a degree in Physics. Or Economics. Or French.

I know you'll think I'm making this up but I've been knitting since I was four and designing garments since I was a teenager. Its not rocket science. While physics, now...

So you cannot see that a design degree, centred around knitting could well have the rigour and intellectual quality of a degree in Physics? Do you imagine people just sit around knitting? They will almost certainly do little of that. Isn't the problem not in the degrees you belittle but that you have very little knowledge of the rigour needed or the depth of understanding or even the areas of knowledge that might part of any learning outside your own, original degree?

Don't you think if you took a physics degree now it would be very different to what you did then. Knowledge isn't static.

When my father was at school in the 1920s, one of the subjects he studied at school was "Electricity". Can you imagine how ahead of the crowd he felt? How exciting it was to be part of the future. However, he wouldn't expect his great-grandchildren to be learning about it now.

Times certainly change. In my grandchildren's school coding is the new electricity. And still we get those who want to turn the clock back and only value what they did all those years ago. They cannot imagine the changes, so they simply don't believe in change.

"Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything."

Law degrees teach students about the law. They don’t train them in the practise of the law. For that further study is needed.

growstuff

volver

Degrees aren't about training people though. They're about educating people.

Hmmm ... I disagree with that. What are medicine and law degrees, if not training?

BMA describes Medical degree as "training" and exams are written, practical tand oral to test both knowledge and skills.

growstuff

Agreed, but that's not what medicine and law degrees teach.

Sneezing?
Surely they do?

a semi-autonomous, convulsive expulsion of air from the lungs through the nose and mouth, usually caused by foreign particles irritating the nasal mucosa. A sneeze expels air forcibly from the mouth and nose in an explosive, spasmodic involuntary action. This action allows for mucus to escape through the nasal cavity

I know, I know, but why?

I have been gardening.

growstuff

Agreed, but that's not what medicine and law degrees teach.

Never done either so I won't comment.

Agreed, but that's not what medicine and law degrees teach.

Callistemon21

Has anyone solved the problem of sneezing?

Well first you have to define the problem ?

By which time I'll have wondered off to watch TV. ?

I remember the discussion about the surfing degree. That's why I originally declined to name any degrees that I thought were not degree standard.

You can have very intellectual conversations about medicine or law.

Golf and surfing now....

I know, I know. But it's what I think.

Has anyone solved the problem of sneezing?

volver

Degrees aren't about training people though. They're about educating people.

Hmmm ... I disagree with that. What are medicine and law degrees, if not training?

volver

Callistemon21

I know you'll think I'm making this up but I've been knitting since I was four and designing garments since I was a teenager. Its not rocket science

Just think - you could be rich and famous!! ?

A neighbour's DD did design at university and is a knitwear designer.

and designing garments since I was a teenager. Its not rocket science.
DGD seems to have an interest in designing clothes. Should we discourage her?
Norman Hartnell, Yves St Laurent, Mary Quant came to mind .....

While physics, now...
DN studied astrophysics

www.facebook.com/knittheuniverse/

I liked this:

When our Sun sneezes, the plume of 'snot' can be bigger than our entire Earth. The sneezes of our Sun cause beautiful auroras and other space weather.

Now I can't stop sneezing (absolutely true!!)

Callistemon21

Germanshepherdsmum

Your husband's experience and the 'golf degree'. I expect someone will say it's very good to study for a 'golf degree' ... if they haven't already. And Calli has added the degree which enables you to teach surfing. Yes, I am obviously a 'degree snob'. As regards both the subject and the institution.
How many graduates do we hear bemoaning the fact that they are burdened with debt and can't get jobs?

None of mine have taken a surfing degree!

But I can't knock it as he has surfed around the world, won competitions, is providing a service now with his own company and there is a demand. ?‍♂️

We have a niche in society - the secret is to find it. ?

The surfing degree has been mentioned before and I looked up the course details. There's an awful lot more to it than people think and surfing is big business (as are golf and handbags).

PS. Maybe Birbalsingh is right and people think only Oxbridge and traditional universities provide "real" degrees.

Callistemon21

^Handbag heaven^

It passed me by!

Now knitting ....... or crochet
Can I knit a handbag?

www.google.co.uk/search?q=knitted+handbag+patterns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjw06aqzaj4AhUMh1wKHc9XCAkQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1920&bih=929&dpr=1

Keep 'em coming ?

Degrees aren't about training people though. They're about educating people.

Handbag heaven

It passed me by!

Now knitting ....... or crochet
Can I knit a handbag?