Working class? Don't think that Oxbridge is for you.

In a Channel 4 interview, she has just said "I'm not making a judgment on how socially mobile the country is", which is a bit strange because I would have thought it would be part of her role as social mobility commissioner.

Maybe she should start with her own school, whose success she measures by the academic success of its pupils.

volver
I disagree with that fundamentally. Learning how to play golf and manage a golf club, I’m afraid, doesn’t stand up to understanding Schrodinger’s equation and quantum mechanics. Or understanding Shakespeare, for the humanities minded among us. The golf things are worth doing but they are not degree level. [Sun 12-Jun-22 11:46:41]

The national qualification frameworks in the United Kingdom are qualifications frameworks that define and link the levels and credit values of different qualifications.

The current framework body for qualifications awarded across the United Kingdom by degree-awarding powers is The Frameworks for Higher Education Qualifications of UK Degree-Awarding Bodies (FHEQ). All degrees are designed within that framework to meet the criteria for the qualification level.

The level criteria for Level 6, which is what we are discussing are:

Holder has advanced practical, conceptual or technological knowledge and understanding of a subject or field of work to create ways forward in contexts where there are many interacting factors. Holder understands different perspectives, approaches or schools of thought and the theories that underpin them. Holder can critically analyse, interpret and evaluate complex information, concepts and ideas.
AND/OR
Holder can determine, refine, adapt and use appropriate methods and advanced cognitive and practical skills to address problems that have limited definition and involve many interacting factors. Holder can use and, where appropriate, design relevant research and development to inform actions. Holder can evaluate actions, methods and results and their implications.

From this, you can see that any Sports degree will be held to a common standard with Science, English or any other subject. It appears to be your own bias where the subject is concerned that leads you to disparage one subject compared with another.

I very much doubt that the rather patronised 'Professional Golf degree' is simply about learning how to play golf and manage a golf club. Sports degrees are not my strong suit but I do know, from the contact I have had with those who run them, that they also contain science and psychology among other relevant teachings. It is easy to understand how the ability to analyse, interpret and evaluate complex information is a function that can be applied to any subject.

They are not identical posts. And I asked a question, and made a suggestion. Why does she spend so much time copying and reformatting messages to make their format identical and hide the identity or even location of the person who purportedly sent them? You'd think she'd not have a lot of time on her hands, given her two jobs.

Incidentally people are calling her out on her Twitter feed for having a fertile imagination when it comes to things people have sent her and she's not suing them for libel. Wonder why.

What an appalling slur to are placing on Ms Burbalsingh's character. While I accept that there may be many identical posts supporting her on her twitter feed. Is there one scintilla of evidence to suggest that she is writing them.

You could be laying yourselves open to being sued for libel, by making such accusations without a shred of evidence other than your prejudices.

I think the OU has set the path for many hybrid degrees in the future. Well done your daughter M0nica

*MP's twitter feed (omitted two words)

There have been examples when there have been literally 100s of "users" pumping out the same tweets.

Same reason most of the supportive messages on my MP's use the same vocabulary and are in the same format I would imagine. I would imagine she keeps the bot farms busy.

I have a question. Does anybody know why so many of the expressions of support on KB's twitter feed are in the same font on a standard background, and are not attributed to any specific people?

Its almost like they've been made up by her.

Surely not.

Congratulations to your daughter Monica

Growstuff my Gransons experience is very relevant, he is from a single parent family some may say working class, he made choices, he does not want the University experience, as for going to Oxbridge my daughter could have gone MA distinction directors prize for excellence, she chose not to go, her choice.
You state some schoolchildren do not have choices, yes they do, presumsbly they attend School, surely if the parents are not telling them about it the School/teachers should.
You complain about what this woman said, but do you think your views could sound dismissive? As I previously said she could have put it better, but I do not think she is wrong.

Congratulations to your daughter Monica.

growstuff Have you looked at the fees the OU currently charges? There is no advantage to doing an OU degree over studying at a local university.

Oh but there is, to begin with you can do an Open University course, bit by bit while holding down a full time job - and that is exactly what many students of the OU do OU courses are designed from day one for people who will be studying in small snatches, late at night and early in the morning, all their materials are designed for distance learning. the courses they offer are far more flexible than most ordinary university courses, even when those too are distance learning. if you cannot get to university full time then the Open University is the doyenne of distance learning courses.

How do I know this? because three weeks ago i attended DD's graduation from the Open Iniversity. She did it while working full time, she studied through a major road accident and an illneddshat nearly killed her. She was able to change the direction of her course as she went from a degree in physics and maths to a degree in STEM. She could not have done it without the flexibility of the Open University because looking after students with problems like hers are their daily bread and butter.

DD told me that more 18 year olds are signing up with the OU because of their ability to combine earning a living and saving the money to pay substantially towards the fees each year, and even though the degree takes longer, they should be able to complete it by their mid 20s.

I value all learning, what I struggle with is the attitude that if you do not go to university that you are not reaching your full potential and therefore deemed to have failed. GrannyGravy13 Sun 12-Jun-22 11:31:00

I would simply put that down to a lack of knowledge on behalf of the speaker. There are many ways to succeed.

However, if you have ever researched family history, how would you feel if you saw your ancestor had signed documents with a cross? Would you feel they were going to find it easy to reach their full potential? These days our economy requires more than reading and writing.

Failure is defined as a lack of success or the inability to meet an expectation. If that lack of success is measured by you and could have been achieved by education then I do think you have been sold short by governments.

If you are a student at Oxbridge then by definition you are not working class, despite family origin.

Growstuff Thanks for posting the link to the Sutton Trust report, which I've now read. I doubt many will bother to read the whole thing but the conclusions make pretty quick reading and are interesting and informative but rather gloomy, I'm afraid.

I’m not backtracking, DaisyAnne, you're just misinterpreting what I’ve said.

Anything taught at degree-level is worthwhile because of the learning skills and the all-around knowledge of that subject you acquire.

I disagree with that fundamentally. Learning how to play golf and manage a golf club, I’m afraid, doesn’t stand up to understanding Schrodinger’s equation and quantum mechanics. Or understanding Shakespeare, for the humanities minded among us. The golf things are worth doing but they are not degree level. Just saying “there’s a degree in that now” cheapens degrees that are awarded for intellectual knowledge.

However, this should not stop those wanting a degree from taking one.

Degrees are meant to be about signalling that you have gained sufficient knowledge to be “worth” a degree. Just wanting to do one isn’t enough, Being capable of doing one is what counts.

I agree with Asimov by the way. To paraphrase: My ability to run a golf club is just as good as you being able to understand and apply Maxwell’s Equations.

rafichagran

Growstuff my Grandson is from a single parent family, his parents split up, money is very tight. He does not have a silver spoon in his mouth.
He made his choices, they were not easy, but he has determination, a will to succeed and he has ambition, these are things money cannot buy and he is hungry to succeed. I agree as a educational Tsar may have been clumsy in her delivery, but I still think she is right.
Let's celebrate all young peoples achievements. My daughter has a MA,my son never went to Uni, I am proud of them both.

In what way is she right?

Sorry, but I don't see how your grandson's experience is relevant.

Nobody is saying you shouldn't be proud of both your children.

The point is that if either of your children had wanted to go to Oxbridge and had the ability to benefit, they should have been given that choice and known the choice existed. Many children don't know the choice exists and what Birbalsingh said would be discouragement. In fact, both Oxford and Cambridge have very generous bursaries for children from poor backgrounds, but I bet most young people aren't told about them.

I also think that the focus of educational investment should be on high quality apprenticeships because at the moment the majority of apprenticeships are anything but "high quality". Arguably, some of the low status degrees could be converted to apprenticeships. Savvy parents and schools know how to play the system and might pay lip service to applauding all, but God forbid their own children do a "vocational" degree at a university they don't consider good enough.

I agree with that but with qualifications:

low status degrees - vocational degrees?
Savvy parents - as you describe it I'd call them Snobby parents!

growstuff

*if you do not go to university that you are not reaching your full potential and therefore deemed to have failed.*

Who's saying that?

keep the peasants in their place

Has been posted, on here.

if you do not go to university that you are not reaching your full potential and therefore deemed to have failed.

Who's saying that?

GrannyGravy13

Also the Open University should not be dismissed, it helps many people into flexible study whilst working and not build up the debt.

Have you looked at the fees the OU currently charges? There is no advantage to doing an OU degree over studying at a local university.

My problem with what she said is that she correlates "poor" and "not very bright". She also can't see beyond schools.

I happen to agree that all achievement should be applauded, but isn't. You only have to look at GN threads to see that. A "good" school is seen as one which has a high number of pupils going to Oxbridge and/or studying medicine.

I also think that the focus of educational investment should be on high quality apprenticeships because at the moment the majority of apprenticeships are anything but "high quality". Arguably, some of the low status degrees could be converted to apprenticeships. Savvy parents and schools know how to play the system and might pay lip service to applauding all, but God forbid their own children do a "vocational" degree at a university they don't consider good enough.

I attended a talk in person given by Birbalsingh. I don't disagree with some of what she's trying to do. My problem with her is that I find her deeply patronising. She has an entrenched view of the "lower classes" and she seems to think that it's her role to "save" them.

Only a miniscule number of people in the general population have the ability to benefit from Oxford or Cambridge, but those who have the ability should be given the opportunity and encouragement. That's what middle class parents and some private schools do. Oxbridge graduates have an enormous influence on all our lives.

Social mobility in the UK has stalled. That's partly because the economy is stagnant and there isn't the growth in managerial and professional jobs which existed for the post-war generation. What's happening is that those already at the top of the pile are digging their heels in, defending what they have for themselves and their families. It's not just about wealth, but power, and naturally they want to keep it to themselves. There is a huge disparity between educational achievements in certain parts of the country which cannot be explained by raw ability. As social mobility tsar, Birbalsingh should be encouraging everybody, regardless of background, to aim for the top, There are young people who would benefit from Oxbridge or one of the prestigious universities who just don't know that they could. If they then decide to turn down the opportunity, that's really up to them, but don't give them the message that it's not for them.

Also the Open University should not be dismissed, it helps many people into flexible study whilst working and not build up the debt.

DaisyAnne many mature people enter University in later life after a year long Access Course at a sixth form college.

I value all learning, what I struggle with is the attitude that if you do not go to university that you are not reaching your full potential and therefore deemed to have failed.

Failure to one person might be getting an A not an A* at A level, success to the next might be getting a promotion from shop floor/general office worker etc to a supervisor. Both are relevant to those involved, the promotion should be celebrated and the lesser mark talked through.

GrannyGravy13

It is possible to have a fulfilling culturally rich life without having gone to Oxbridge or any other university.

It is certainly possible to continue learning for the rest of your life GrannyGravy13. I have met many who didn't have the opportunities for further education who have incredible knowledge in areas in which they are interested.

I would want a government to offer life-time learning. However, the Conservatives don't value it where the serfs are concerned, it seems.