Shamima Begum

I think I will come back if discussion becomes a bit more reasonable again

Some of us are trying our best to remain objective and look at the facts of the case without using our own personal experiences as examples, which might cause us to be biased one way or another.

Chewbacca

It would appear that MerylStreep's post @ 20.23 was relevant after all vs. This subject shouldn't be reductive to one's own personal experiences; it's far greater and with much wider consequences for the whole of society for that.

???

I agree.

It would appear that MerylStreep's post @ 20.23 was relevant after all vs. This subject shouldn't be reductive to one's own personal experiences; it's far greater and with much wider consequences for the whole of society for that.

Chewbacca

^There is nothing wrong with me saying that if she felt that way it may go some way towards understanding her behaviour.^

Unless, of course, there's no truth in it; in which case it would be an extremely unpleasant and deeply painful thing for her mother/family to hear. They were, and continue to be, extremely worried and concerned about her and continue to try and help her. As all loving and supportive families do. Words matter.

Hmm

Im sure my mother would say the same, however if my daughter were saying that and I was absolutely sure i had done my job perfectly well as a parent (something I have never seen a good parent actually say, let alone being certain of others) I would be more concerned about why she was saying that.

I think I will come back if discussion becomes a bit more reasonable again

There is nothing wrong with me saying that if she felt that way it may go some way towards understanding her behaviour.

Unless, of course, there's no truth in it; in which case it would be an extremely unpleasant and deeply painful thing for her mother/family to hear. They were, and continue to be, extremely worried and concerned about her and continue to try and help her. As all loving and supportive families do. Words matter.

I wasn't just talking to you, though.

Doodledog

We can't base law on whether or not someone says they feel/felt unloved. Laws are not made based on feelings - they have to be unbiased and unequivocal.

I haven't asked for that

We can't base law on whether or not someone says they feel/felt unloved. Laws are not made based on feelings - they have to be unbiased and unequivocal.

Except that is not what i said Chewbacca I said that she said that... And I backed up that she said it, as did another poster.

There is nothing wrong with me saying that if she felt that way it may go some way towards understanding her behaviour.

Which, objectively, if we want to learn from this and protect others in future, seems reasonable

Lemsip my reference to the "red top tabloid" was referring to a previous poster's claims that SB was an unloved child; I seriously doubt that to be true or credible and the Times article doesn't support that claim either. I'm fully aware of the reputable interviews with journalists, where she's claimed to have been "unfazed by seeing beheaded heads in bins" and I'm convinced that she was either still brainwashed by the IS ideology or was afraid of retribution from the other women in the camp if she didn't appear to still be in thrall to them.

She said she saw many videos online of people being bombed and killed in syria, the desensitisation could hsve started before she left the UK

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47229181
One of three schoolgirls who left east London in 2015 to join the Islamic State group says she has no regrets, but wants to return to the UK.

In an interview with The Times , Shamima Begum, now 19, talked about seeing "beheaded heads" in bins - but said that it "did not faze her".

Speaking from a refugee camp in Syria, she said she was nine months pregnant and wanted to come home for her baby.

She said she'd had two other children who had both died.

NOT a Red Top Tabloid read on
I was just a dumb kid who made a mistake, says Shamima Begum
Former Isis bride begs: ‘Can I come home, pretty please?’

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-was-just-a-dumb-kid-who-made-a-mistake-says-shamima-begum-0gz2kg8sj

Baring in mind i work closely with many different educational therapists and am trained/still training which is where my thoughts come from on this subject, not my own (healed) trauma as previously suggested.

We must always listen, especislly to feelings because even if they aren't the right feelings (whoever is qualified to work that out), its still a sign something is wrong.

Im quite used to sitting with children and patiently getting to the bottom of things. It is worth it to be fair to them instead of simply reacting and making the situation worse.

I suspect that your hypothesis is accurate Iam64 and believe that to be more relevant than the unsubstantiated claims of a red top tabloid that doesn't have a journalist that has actually spoken to Ms Begum. I've listened to every interview held with her whilst she's been incarcerated in the camp and haven't heard her once say that she felt unloved by her mother or an outsider in her community (which, incidentally has a very large Muslim and ethnic population). Her poor family must have felt even worse having read it.

Yes Violet, Butler Sloss eminently sensible. She challenged the mantra ‘the child must always be believed’. I, like many others really struggled with that but learned a lot about investigating and safeguarding from the report

Iam64 sorry i missed your reply until now, seems sensible

AGAA4, you’re right about teenagers of course. Anyone whose been one, parented, taught, supported, shared their life with teenagers, including 15 year olds know their mood can change in minutes.
As Butler Sloss recommends, listen carefully, take their comments/allegations seriously. That’s what the police, social workers and teachers were doing. Sadly, they didn’t take any appropriate action to safeguard SB or treat her parents with respect.

lemsip

sorry Violetsky didn;t spot your post before I posted.

No need to apologise, I probably should have just posted it in the first place but i didnt realise i would be doubted like that

sorry Violetsky didn;t spot your post before I posted.

chewbacca

here we are then;

*Shamima Begum says she joined ISIS because she 'didn't feel loved as a child'
Shamima Begum said she felt like an outsider in her community and wanted to be part of something - but she says she was naive and couldn't tell the difference between what was ISIS propaganda and what was real

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/shamima-begum-says-joined-isis-23752922

Even if SB had said she felt unloved she was a teenager full of hormones and angst
and their moods swing every which way at that age.
I have had 4 of my own teenagers and 2 GCs who are in their teens and understand they can have feelings that change day by day.

I already posted the link Chewbacca

VioletSky

When a child says they felt unloved, people should listen.

It really doesn't matter if people agree they should feel that way, what matters is that they do/did.

Not listening to someone, especially a child, saying that to you would be a very quick way to reenforce those feelings because it sends the clear message, your feelings don't matter and I dont respect you enough to put your feelings above my ego

The Cleveland Report by Judge Elizabeth Butler Sloss addresses the issue. It stresses the need to listen carefully to what children have to say and take it seriously.
Butler Sloss approached the issue of listening to children protecting them, in a calm, reasoned, balanced manner. This was August 2011. The guidance remains useful