Shamima Begum

Chestnut

VioletSky I had sympathy for the Bulger boys because they were so young and obviously had a terrible upbringing, lacking in support and guidance from babyhood. Begum on the other hand was 15 and well educated. I have much less sympathy. It was a deliberate choice to go abroad and become involved in killing people on an ongoing basis. Not a one-off event but a life choice. She chose to be involved in murdering people long term.

Sorry, what are you basing this on exactly?

Apart from the fact that what we call terrorism, they view as war and that our own armies have also blown up (murdered) innocent parties...

You have no idea what this child wss promised or put through.

So white non muslim children convicted of murder... Do deserve a fair trial and sympathy

Muslim girl, said she felt unloved at home, groomed on line, statuatorily raped, saw her own friends killed, lost 3 babies, not convicted of any crime, made homeless and stateless, left in a country where she is still vulnerable.. No sympathy.

Ok.

VioletSky I had sympathy for the Bulger boys because they were so young and obviously had a terrible upbringing, lacking in support and guidance from babyhood. Begum on the other hand was 15 and well educated. I have much less sympathy. It was a deliberate choice to go abroad and become involved in killing people on an ongoing basis. Not a one-off event but a life choice. She chose to be involved in murdering people long term.

growstuff

PS. I have a feeling her father was living mainly in Bangladesh when Begum left the UK. Maybe somebody else can confirm that or knows more.

Yes, I think so.

If I remember correctly, she stole her older sister's passport as a 15 year old might have been questioned if going overseas.

WWM2 and MOnica, thanks for confirming the possibility of positive change. It’s possible and so important

M0nica

^We know that deradicalisation doesn't work^

No we don't. We know that it doesn't always work, but we do not hear from those for whom it does work, or only anonymously, because they do not speak out for fear of violence or death at the hands of those extremists they have walked away from. But they are there.

I have watched and listened to people that have been de-radicalised very successfully.

One is now working de-radicalising others and would be in a good position to understand their psyche I would have thought.

Maudi

I hope she rots over there I'm sick of all the bleeding hearts and the fat cat lawyers who care more about the perpetrators of crimes than their victims. She never condemned the Manchester bombings, she wasn't fazed by chopped off heads, ISIS said they were sending their soldiers overseas to carry on their work, how do you know she's not one of them. Some people are so naive or perhaps just stupid and easily conned by some sob story.

‘Bleeding hearts - fat cat lawyers’. What a very unpleasant view you have, it seems, towards anyone who doesn’t share your political views, or belief systems.

We have some excellent, hard working lawyers in this country. I hope I never need their skills but I’m relieved they’re there for people who need them.

Many ‘bleeding hearts’ work tirelessly to help people in need. It would be desperately sad if nasty, ill informed, angry people had the power to change that. Oh dear, I’d forgotten about Pritti Patel and her supporters

Chestnut I assumed ulu were asking questions as i was, to make people think, not to gain an answer... Which i dont expect.

However, you can see my questions directly result from yours so perhaps you need to think about mine as i did yours.

And maybe you would then see, this is not nearly as black and white as you seem to think.

Maybe you can realise that it is possible to hate the behaviour and still sympathise with the child.

Every child matters.

Chestnut that really is the million £ question.

Unfortunately we cannot know what goes on in other folks minds, we learn what they want to be known and we learn from their deeds.

I worked in the City of London at the height of the IRA bombing campaign, too close for comfort on several occasions.

Like I said upthread my initial reaction when she resurfaced was leave her where she is, then I thought hard and long and came to the conclusion she is the U.K. s problem, she should return and face the consequences of her actions.

I hope she rots over there I'm sick of all the bleeding hearts and the fat cat lawyers who care more about the perpetrators of crimes than their victims. She never condemned the Manchester bombings, she wasn't fazed by chopped off heads, ISIS said they were sending their soldiers overseas to carry on their work, how do you know she's not one of them. Some people are so naive or perhaps just stupid and easily conned by some sob story.

You have asked a lot of questions VioletSky, but not answered the one I asked.

How would you feel discovering your daughter missing?

Discovering she had been groomed online?

Discovering she had left for a cult or an organisation or people trafficked?

How would you feel if she had been raped? Drug addicted? Pregnant? Lost a child?

Many children are groomed in this country. Many believe they are going to a good life. Many end up with trauma and even defend their captors. Many have helped recruit other children. Many have normalised their situations.

All unforgivable?

No sympathy for them?

Written off?

Left without support or help?

Someone's daughter?

Possibly a member if your own family?

Well exactly, one act of terrorism in a public place can result in multiple deaths. Any time, any place, anywhere. Those who sympathise with Begum, well how would you feel if your loved ones were there when she suddenly decided to take action and slaughter some innocents? How would we ever know if she was still planning to do this?

Is there anything, crime activity where we can say that every single person is caught and punished? One murder is one to many, one rape is one too many

But one innocent person in prison for a crime they did not commit, is one too many, one person kept in prison for what someone considers what they might do, not what they have done is also one too many.

. . . is it fair to sentence him as an adult when he was only a child himself at the time?

I think that's worth a thread of its own. Give me a minute?

We know deradicalisation hasn't worked in one case as he went to commit more acts of terrorism.
One case is one too many.

But how do we know whether it has worked? As I said, you have no idea what is really going on in someone's head, especially if they are cunning and devious.

We know that deradicalisation doesn't work

No we don't. We know that it doesn't always work, but we do not hear from those for whom it does work, or only anonymously, because they do not speak out for fear of violence or death at the hands of those extremists they have walked away from. But they are there.

The age of criminal responsibility in England & Wales is 10 in Scotland it is 8.

I guess she willingly made the journey to Turkey and then on to Syria, she may well have had an idea of what lay ahead of her. How much was down to grooming or how much was down to an idealised view of Islam we will probably never know.

She should be brought back to the U.K. for trial.

tickingbird

^What is the point of having different ages of responsibility if we wait until a criminal child reaches adulthood to punish them? If we are going to do that we may as well abolish children’s courts and young offenders’ institutions, and throw them straight in with adult criminals.^

Going slightly off thread here but I was thinking about another case a few weeks ago. A young boy of 6, I believe, Ricky Neve, was murdered years ago. His mother was originally charged but was acquitted. Thanks to progress in DNA techniques, a man has subsequently been charged and found guilty of his murder. I think he’s early 40’s now but was 11, I believe, at the time he murdered the poor child.

He hasn’t been sentenced yet as far as I know but I did wonder is it fair to sentence him as an adult when he was only a child himself at the time?

Good point, Tickingbird. Again we have a child who seems to have gone down a dark road by the age of 11 just like the Bulger boys. I'm not sure what should be done with him as an adult. He was clearly living in darkness himself and needed rehabilitation back then, but what about now? How do they know whether he poses a risk, should he be locked up? The whole subject of child killers is a very difficult one. I believe in some countries they bring them back into society and mentor them, but that only works if the child is apprehended at the time. In this case he was not caught and grew up. I'm amazed he didn't kill someone else, but I suppose detailed psychiatric assessments need to be done.

That is why there is a possibility of acquittal tickingbird if she goes to court in the UK. She was 15 when she joined ISIL so a minor in the eyes of the law.

What is the point of having different ages of responsibility if we wait until a criminal child reaches adulthood to punish them? If we are going to do that we may as well abolish children’s courts and young offenders’ institutions, and throw them straight in with adult criminals.

Going slightly off thread here but I was thinking about another case a few weeks ago. A young boy of 6, I believe, Ricky Neve, was murdered years ago. His mother was originally charged but was acquitted. Thanks to progress in DNA techniques, a man has subsequently been charged and found guilty of his murder. I think he’s early 40’s now but was 11, I believe, at the time he murdered the poor child.

He hasn’t been sentenced yet as far as I know but I did wonder is it fair to sentence him as an adult when he was only a child himself at the time?

I agree with you MOnica. She needs to be brought back to the UK and interrogated thoroughly. Our security forces might even pick up some intelligence.

Personally, the issue for me is not her age, but the fact she was born in the UK and is our responsibility. The UK has intentionally made her stateless, thus providing her with a genuine grievance. She could become a magnet for other people throughout the world.

If she was being monitored and a letter was given to her to give to her parents, I fail to understand why these concerns were not made clear to her parents by the appropriate authorities. Clearly the parents should have been called into school to discuss the concerns about their daughter and if police and Social Services were also concerned, then they should have expressed their concerns face to face to the parents as well.

Additionally I have never been able to understand why a minor, aged 15, was allowed to travel by air, in particular to Syria/Turkey, but anywhere really, without parental consent.

AGAA4

As JE said Begum could well be acquitted if she comes back.
So what if she is still radicalised. We know that deradicalisation doesn't work and this could leave a potential terrorist on our streets.
The security forces are stretched and it takes so much man power to watch one potential terrorist that it would be difficult to watch her forever.
I wouldn't want the responsibility of any more lives being lost because of the emotional pull this woman seems to have.

Yes, the security forces are stretched, but so are prison officers. Should we try to ignore all prisoners? It's the responsibility of the state to make sure it can do its job, which includes detaining criminals who have been born in the UK.

It's scaremongering to claim she could be acquitted. Nobody knows.

If SB was acquitted, that assumes our courts find her NG of any charges she may face .
Being concerned about the rule of law doesn’t mean posters are being influenced by ‘emotional pull ‘