Why is Keir Starmer trying to put so many voters off?

You seem to be getting frayed at the edges Glorianny.

You hadn't made it clear to who it was addressed. Also, it was immediately after mine. It would not be the first post that addressed points that didn't exist.

Good to hear that wasn't the case.

DaisyAnne

I'm assuming that is not addressed to me Glorianny. I said no such thing.

in that case how can it be addressed to you?

I'm assuming that is not addressed to me Glorianny. I said no such thing.

You can try to justify it any way you like and post as much explanation as you choose, but saying a small group of people are responsible and controlling over the majority, or blaming others for not speaking out just shows how bias works.

Some white people are racist, have they power over the many or do their views influence most people?- of course not.

I am not marginalised or forced into submission because someone holds views I disagree with. Nor are most people. It's what free speech is about.

Glorianny

I believe Blair is busy trying to get the UK back into the EU.

I appeared to be the only one on GN who watched Blair's recent conference; I didn't get any such impression. What he did seem to be saying is we need a plan, a plan for the future.

To any politician with an iota of intelligence, that would mean stopping all the personal and divisive stuff that Johnson's lot spew out and planning farming, technology, medicine, jobs, education and exports, etc. That would include the best deals we could get to export to our nearest neighbours. His speakers were a mixture of left and right or simply highly knowledgable in their subject. Now, if all conferences, including party political ones, were up to the standard of Blair's, I would look forward to watching all of them.

The majority of progressives, be they Labour or not, seem to understand that, to quote, "it's the economy, stupid". Brexit is dead, passed, over. Now it's time to make the best of what has been left to us by those believed just leaving would improve our lives in some magic way.

I d not think anyone is writing anything negative about Transwomen. Sex and gender are two separate issues. How ever much you can change gender, you cannot, as yet change sex. Someone who has gone through puberty as a man is physically stronger, faster than a woman. This is why the two sexes compete only against their own sex, where physical qualities count and male record holders, run faster, jump higher than women. yes, there are a few exceptions, but that does not dent the rule.

It is easy to say Some transwomen have said lesbians should be open to relationships with them.
Some transwomen are involved in sport.
Some companies encourage people to declare their chosen pronoun, a bank has given employees the option of having their preferred pronoun on their badge

But life is organised around 'Somes'. Some people feel strongly about something and they act on it. The question to be asked is how many people are 'some' and what should their power be over the many.

In this case those on the trans side of the divide, a relatively small group, are trying to wag the whole body politic and by so doing are trying to bully and force into submission and marginalise a much larger group, who are also disadvantaged - and that is women.

I agree with your use of ‘some’ Glorianny, but my concern is firstly for the females that are affected by the ‘some’.
Maybe if there was greater concern and condemnation of the ‘some’ by those who don’t act in a way that the ‘some’ do, there would be no need to protect females rights against the ‘some’ and their misogynistic supporters.
Instead of which, shouts of transphobia, attacks on females like JKR and others, are acceptable to the ‘some’ and their misogynistic supporters.

DaisyAnne

25Avalon

Blair is waiting to emerge from his lair. He has advised Starmer to drop anything woke.

Goodness, where you there Avalon. How did you manage that?

Enough newspapers have reported it over the last 6 months including The Guardian. If we had to be present at everything to believe it we could discuss nothing. End of.

I believe Blair is busy trying to get the UK back into the EU.

25Avalon

Blair is waiting to emerge from his lair. He has advised Starmer to drop anything woke.

Goodness, where you there Avalon. How did you manage that?

Bias and discrimination isn't complicated. It simply blames a whole section of people and paints them all as behaving in a certain way. Trans people are as diverse and different in their views as any other group of people.

It’s complex isn’t it. I’m a member of the Labour Party and voted for Keir for leader. I’ll be voting Labour in next GE - whoever is the leader. DaisyAnne as so often in life, what ‘should be’ and what ‘actually is’ tend to be poles apart.

Doodledog

Very true, LizzieDrip.

The trouble is that none of the Shadow Cabinet has a good record on this issue, which is why I am at a loss as to where to place my vote. I just don't know who to vote for this time round, which has never happened before.

I am not getting into a slanging match by using words like 'banshee'; but I will say that women who feel as I do are not a small group on a small board. This may be true on here, but we are many in number across 'real life' and online. At one time, this was a minority issue, but now that transwomen have started using into female sport and winning medals, and insisting that lesbians have sex with them, as otherwise they must be transphobic, and banks are asking employees to declare pronouns on email and badges, more and more people are becoming aware of the issue and joining us in voicing our dissent.

Well I don't know any women in real life who think like this.
Let's correct a few things
Some transwomen have said lesbians should be open to relationships with them.
Some transwomen are involved in sport.
Some companies encourage people to declare their chosen pronoun, a bank has given employees the option of having their preferred pronoun on their badge.
A few people are getting all het up about it and posting negative and biased views about transwomen.
The very nature of bias and discrimination is that you accuse a whole group of people of behaving in a certain way and don't recognise them as individuals.

25Avalon

Blair is waiting to emerge from his lair. He has advised Starmer to drop anything woke.

Starmer is more akin to Brown than Blair, wisely.

This is the problem LizzieDrip. We may vote for a party, but it is a party that has a leader, and if the leader is saying all the things Starmer has said, what he is saying is what the party he leads, supports.

More importantly, what he said, I think, was more to do with keeping transgender activists in the Labour Party on board, rather than a considered and thought out response on the subject to the electorate as a whole.

I never really thought that Starmer would be PM, I think his job was to make the labour party electable in the way Kinnock did, I have a lot of time for Wes Streeting, he actually talks about poverty and class which is quite reassuring.

Blair is waiting to emerge from his lair. He has advised Starmer to drop anything woke.

LizzieDrip

Thanks Doodledog I must admit to finding the whole ‘Starmer doesn’t know what a woman is’ issue baffling. You’ve clarified it for me and I can see how some women might feel disenfranchised. However, would they prefer a Conservative government led by Johnson, whose treatment of women is beyond disgusting!

I know. It's a real problem, and I have no idea what I will do when it comes to casting my vote.

Above in reply to LizzieDrip Mon 04-Jul-22 21:27:25

That may be how it should be LizzieDrip but I have no doubt it isn't how it has been. What would you do about it? Ban those who vote for the person from voting? Good luck with that one.

Thanks Doodledog I must admit to finding the whole ‘Starmer doesn’t know what a woman is’ issue baffling. You’ve clarified it for me and I can see how some women might feel disenfranchised. However, would they prefer a Conservative government led by Johnson, whose treatment of women is beyond disgusting!

Very true, LizzieDrip.

The trouble is that none of the Shadow Cabinet has a good record on this issue, which is why I am at a loss as to where to place my vote. I just don't know who to vote for this time round, which has never happened before.

I am not getting into a slanging match by using words like 'banshee'; but I will say that women who feel as I do are not a small group on a small board. This may be true on here, but we are many in number across 'real life' and online. At one time, this was a minority issue, but now that transwomen have started using into female sport and winning medals, and insisting that lesbians have sex with them, as otherwise they must be transphobic, and banks are asking employees to declare pronouns on email and badges, more and more people are becoming aware of the issue and joining us in voicing our dissent.

I think we need to remember that, when we vote at a GE, we’re voting for a political party, based on their policies, manifesto etc. We are NOT voting for one person i.e. the leader of that party. It infuriates me when people say ‘I couldn’t vote for Starmer’ - you would be voting for LABOUR not Starmer.

I am. I voted for Keir the last time round. If (and it's a big 'if') I get a chance to vote for AB, I will.

LizzieDrip, it's not about trick questions, although it's fair to say that the Tories are trying to make the most of things.

All of the opposition parties (Labour, Lib Dems, SNP, Greens) are in thrall to the trans ideology which says that women are not a sex class - in other words anyone who 'feels' that their 'gender' is a woman is a woman.

Many women object to this, as it means that men have access to all our spaces - can enter changing rooms and watch us undress, can lurk in Ladies' loos (where a friend of mine was seriously assaulted years ago) and not be challenged, can take jobs that were earmarked for women (few as these are) and can take roles such as rape counsellors and so on that have previously been reserved for women for reasons of sensitivity.

Stonewall used to be an organisation fighting for the rights of gay people but switched to a trans rights movement when they had succeeded in getting gay rights, and many politicians are terrified of offending them, so say idiotic things like 'men can have cervixes' and tie themselves in knots to avoid explaining what a woman is (the Stonewall chant is that 'Transwomen ARE women', and they are scared of saying otherwise).

The Tories have got wise to this, and accuse KS of not knowing what a woman is. Of course this is nonsense, as he is an intelligent man, and even an unintelligent one is well aware of what a woman is, but nobody on the side of transactivism knows what a woman is - just ask one. They have invented a term for us - 'cis' (actually they have repurposed a Latin prefix, which means something like 'over here', but never mind).

The whole debacle has left a lot of women worried about voting for parties which will (it appears) sell us down the river and put women's and girls' rights behind those of men.

I agree that opening the door to more Conservative misrule is terrifying, but so is having women's rights pushed back decades. This is why many women feel disenfranchised.

LizzieDrip

I’m afraid I’m really missing something here. Can someone PLEASE explain what Keir Starmer has done that is derogatory to women, and why it is so important that many GNs say they cannot vote Labour at the next GE. Whatever it is, surely it’s not worth opening the door for another Conservative government. I really do want to understand what Keir’s terrible travesty is!

He has upset a group which banshee-like appears on thread, after thread, after thread. They are a small group on a smallish forum who don't like being dissagreed with. Obviously they will not all be Labour members or even Labour supporters, so I shouldn't worry. He seems to know what he is doing - which makes a change in our current politics.