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The Forde Report what should happen now?

(204 Posts)
Glorianny Wed 20-Jul-22 08:26:25

As the report is published and it identifies factions in the LP headquarters which worked against Corbyn. Says that the election result was not influenced, although money which could have supported marginal seats where the MP was a Corbyn supporter went elsewhere. What happens now? Can the party members who voted for Corbyn ever trust Labour HQ again?

MaizieD Tue 26-Jul-22 15:45:52

M0nica

You do not need to look back at the 1980s, you would need to be over 60 to have been old enough to vote then, to see dissension and suicidal factionalism in the Labour party.

I know Keir Starmer is trying to drag the Labour party into the 21st century, but it is clearly a struggle, and it only takes another person who shares Jeremy Corbyn's views to run for the leadership to upturn the applecart and cause the party to go back to another Corbynite period. It is just not safe to vote Labour because you have no idea what way it may be moving this time next year.

The problem with the Conservatives, is that we do know what direction it will be going for the forseeable future and that is as dangerous for the country and as unpleasant as the Labour alternative.

I wasn't aware that the Labour Party had a leadership election imminent. Do you know something we don't, MOnica?

M0nica Tue 26-Jul-22 15:24:22

You do not need to look back at the 1980s, you would need to be over 60 to have been old enough to vote then, to see dissension and suicidal factionalism in the Labour party.

I know Keir Starmer is trying to drag the Labour party into the 21st century, but it is clearly a struggle, and it only takes another person who shares Jeremy Corbyn's views to run for the leadership to upturn the applecart and cause the party to go back to another Corbynite period. It is just not safe to vote Labour because you have no idea what way it may be moving this time next year.

The problem with the Conservatives, is that we do know what direction it will be going for the forseeable future and that is as dangerous for the country and as unpleasant as the Labour alternative.

MargotLedbetter Tue 26-Jul-22 15:09:44

It doesn't really matter what he thinks, it's what his party's policy is — and there's no doubt it's misogynistic and homophobic. I have LGB friends who've voted Labour all their lives but will vote Tory to keep Labour out.

Ilovecheese Tue 26-Jul-22 15:05:52

There are going to be less and less people who remember " Derek Hatton and Militant and the near-bankruptcy of some Labour councils in the 80s. "
I think we tend to forget how long ago the 80s are.
The current strikes seem to be broadly supported in the general population, again, there are so many fewer people who remember when strikes were more mainstream.

I think the self ID question might be better left to the other threads which are discussing it. I see the issue as just another example of not really knowing what Keir Starmer actually believes about something.

MargotLedbetter Tue 26-Jul-22 14:19:48

I know that. I've had some success in my life. I still want to see a fairer, more equitable society and have always voted accordingly but it gets more and more difficult to see how a riven Labour Party can deliver it.

It's of interest to me that none of the Labour-right-or-wrong supporters here have commented on the gender ideology/ women's rights issue. Labour seem to still be committed to allowing self-ID, so that any man who says he is a woman is a woman. Labour would mean the end of women's single sex provision in many areas, including the end of all-women short lists. As women start to wake up to the ramifications of all this — male sex offenders in women's prisons, young people given puberty-supressing drugs that sterilise them and cause skeletal issues — Labour's refusal to move position is haemorrhaging female votes.

Glorianny Tue 26-Jul-22 14:11:46

MargotLedbetter

I suspect a lot of people who'd like to vote Labour hear the words 'strike' and 'trades unions' and think 'Oh hell, it's going to be the 80s all over again.' You're a political ideologue, in the nicest possible way, Glorianny, who's chosen your side and will stick with it through thick or thin. No issue with that. Unfortunately 70% (guessing, but certainly a majority) of the electorate don't think like that. Voters have a range of motivations/ ways of analysing situations and not all of them are rational.

www.politico.com/story/2008/10/what-kind-of-voter-are-you-014817

The world is changing. A growing number of ordinary people, particularly the young, are self-employed or running their own small businesses and don't think in terms of workers vs evil employers. I don't think the old left and right divisions really apply any more.

I know quite a few young people who are self employed and running small businesses, most of them are Labour supporters. It's a big mistake to think that successful people can't have labour values. For some having more doesn't mean you lose sight of ideals or stop believing some people need more help.

MargotLedbetter Tue 26-Jul-22 13:48:43

I suspect a lot of people who'd like to vote Labour hear the words 'strike' and 'trades unions' and think 'Oh hell, it's going to be the 80s all over again.' You're a political ideologue, in the nicest possible way, Glorianny, who's chosen your side and will stick with it through thick or thin. No issue with that. Unfortunately 70% (guessing, but certainly a majority) of the electorate don't think like that. Voters have a range of motivations/ ways of analysing situations and not all of them are rational.

www.politico.com/story/2008/10/what-kind-of-voter-are-you-014817

The world is changing. A growing number of ordinary people, particularly the young, are self-employed or running their own small businesses and don't think in terms of workers vs evil employers. I don't think the old left and right divisions really apply any more.

Glorianny Tue 26-Jul-22 12:37:06

MargotLedbetter the reason Labour isn't offering a strong opposition is because they have a leader who seems intent on sitting on the fence about matters that should be of concern to him, but absolutely resolute about throwing people out the party. People like Ken Loach.
Mick Lynch is saying the things the Labour leader should be saying
Zarah Sultana tweeted supporting the CWU strike- Good for her
The Post Office made £35 million in profits last year but then tried to freeze staff pay, just as the cost-of-living crisis intensified.

That’s why a massive 97.3% of Communication Workers Union members voted to strike.

Solidarity with the workers on strike today and Monday

MaizieD Tue 26-Jul-22 12:02:26

Galaxy

I am afraid popular support doesnt mean a great deal to me. I want the kind of support (involving actually votes) that wins elections

That's what I find so frustrating, Galaxy. There seems to be such a disconnect between what people appear to support and the way they actually vote.

MaizieD Tue 26-Jul-22 11:40:58

I think the only way forward is for Labour to divide into two separate parties, one left of centre and one far left and move on without holding each other in a death grip. Then we'll have a chance of seeing a positive vote for Labour. We desperately need a strong, united opposition and Labour's not offering that.

And without PR that's any sort of progressive government out of power for decades.

Not only can the tories apparently 'read' the voter's but they are also good at holding the disparate elements in their party together with a relentless focus on gaining and holding onto power.

Far from splitting, Labour factions should take note.

MargotLedbetter Tue 26-Jul-22 11:29:21

Maizie, they fight shy of voting for the policies they would like to see because they know that they come attached to a party with a very strong ideological, far-left faction and they feel the better the devil they know than the one they don't. People have long memories that go back to Derek Hatton and Militant and the near-bankruptcy of some Labour councils in the 80s. The older voters remember Wilson and Callaghan and Foot and the awful stalemate and financial crises of the 70s. I think Labour's current disarray reminds many people of those times and they don't want to go back to that.

Glorianny, I have been associated with Labour since 1979, which was the first election in which I was eligible to vote. 43 years. Labour has only managed to spend 13 of those years in power and a lot of Labour voters would say that Blair/Brown wasn't a proper Labour government anyway.

I think the only way forward is for Labour to divide into two separate parties, one left of centre and one far left and move on without holding each other in a death grip. Then we'll have a chance of seeing a positive vote for Labour. We desperately need a strong, united opposition and Labour's not offering that.

Galaxy Tue 26-Jul-22 11:04:38

I am afraid popular support doesnt mean a great deal to me. I want the kind of support (involving actually votes) that wins elections

MaizieD Tue 26-Jul-22 11:01:10

..by elections are tending (not always) to go to the 'any party but the main two' candidate.

Looking at the 10 by elections held in the last 2 years all I see is 3 LibDem gains in previous tory seats.

The remaining 6 (apart from the Scottish one, SNP hold) are the usual 2 party results.

In the 3 Lib Dem gains I see a protest vote against the most corrupt PM we have known since WWII but I don't see a trend to 'any party but the main two', Labour was never going to win in those seats.

What I don't quite understand is the perception that Labour is being controlled by the far left, when Starmer is doing his best to drag it back to a centre-left position. He clearly has a huge job to shift entrenched views of the Labour Party.

We have seen those entrenched views on this forum over the years, such as; Labour isn't the party of the working class any more versus Labour doesn't support aspiration; Labour is run by elitist champagne socialists, versus Labour politicians are 'common' and have no ;class'.

Now we have Labour apparently having a message of 'misery' and 'victimhood', yet there has been huge popular support for Mick Lynch who is pointing out that workers are being shafted by companies making big profits but refusing to distribute some of those profits to the workers without who those profits would not be made.

We even have surveys showing that people approve of policies which are seen as 'left wing' but who fight shy of voting for the party that wants to implement them.

It baffles me...

Glorianny Tue 26-Jul-22 10:33:15

I find it fascinating that people blame Labour because they choose to vote Tory and use a variety of excuses to explain away their guilt.
The LP has always had a range of views and voices at its heart and that has been its strength. Labour leaders have prospered because they accepted this. Corbyn, Benn, Skinner, McDonnell have all spoken out in the past, but have been kept in the party. It's the sign of a weak leader that Starmer feels the only way he can deal with dissension is to expel people. It is the fact that there are people in the LP who are honest caring politicians even though they may not follow all the rules that attracts people.

MargotLedbetter Tue 26-Jul-22 10:04:36

I'm shocked at times by the contempt the purist, Corbynite Labour/ Momentum lot have for the views of ordinary people. Those who join the political parties and participate at constituency level are all too often out of touch with what the majority of ordinary voters think. Most members of my former CLP seem to think that they know better than the people they want to vote for them and as a result my county is almost completely Blue. I may live in the SE but there's poverty and disadvantage here too.

The Tories are much better at picking up feelings at grassroots level and reflecting them in their policies. Transgender ideology is a great example. They very quickly picked up how unpopular that is and changed tack. I sometimes despair at Labour's inability to do the same, but they are set on being ideologically pure, even if that prevents them from achieving power.

I've been struck when canvassing in my own SE constituency by the number of people who I would have expected to vote Labour because they talk as if they are barely getting by and would benefit from tax cuts and a more equitable society. But many are really turned off by the misery and victimhood that is the never-ending Labour message and want something else — which I think many people here would consider Tory-Lite or Blair's Labour.

M0nica Tue 26-Jul-22 09:06:59

The problem with both parties is that the moderate whole is wagged by the extremist tail. The extremists on both sides are those who put ideological purity ahead of electoral appeal.

The extremists have their followers and they are noisy and work hard. Unfortunately the effect on the moderate majority is not to stimulate them to push for moderate policies, but to just shrug their shoulders and walk away, leaving the two parties to retreat more and more to the extremes and become less and less representative of the electorate as a whole. MargotLedbetter's post illustrates this so well. it is a point that has been made in a number of other publications and media

Turnout at elections is drifting downwards assets-learning.parliament.uk/uploads/2021/12/Turnout-at-Elections.pdf and by elections are tending (not always) to go to the 'any party but the main two' candidate.

Galaxy Tue 26-Jul-22 09:06:45

'His goal was to make things a little easier for the people who have it the worst in this country'
He spectacularly failed to achieve that goal didnt he. The grand total of bugger all with regard to that aim.

Grany Tue 26-Jul-22 08:57:33

From Ryan Coogan Independent

After the release of the Forde report last week, you can probably see why other parties don’t tend to make a lot of room for people who are directly opposed to their stated goals. According to the report, Labour officials worked against the interests of their own party in order to undermine its then-leader Jeremy Corbyn and the party’s left wing as a whole, going so far as to divert campaign resources away from winnable seats and towards candidates who were anti-Corbyn.

This conspiracy was documented in a series of WhatsApp messages, in which those involved discussed “protecting the party from Jeremy Corbyn rather than helping him to advance his agenda”.

The report also confirms that claims of antisemitism against Corbyn were weaponised by his internal enemies in order to create an air of moral panic around the prospect of his leadership; a fact that few will find surprising considering that the right immediately stopped pretending to care about Jewish people five minutes after Corbyn was out the door.

The report points to a deep sickness not just in the Labour Party but in British politics as a whole. Corbyn had a huge swell of support behind him from the kinds of party members that Labour is, in theory, meant to represent. His political philosophy can really be summed up as “let’s make things a little easier for the people who have it the worst in this country”. Everything outside of that is obfuscation.

The fact that people within his own party were terrified of him begs the question: which part of supporting the working class did they disagree with? Which part of Corbyn being on the right side of virtually every social issue for the past seven decades had them lighting the warning beacons of Gondor? How is being terrified of social progress not only a socially acceptable political position to hold in this country but seemingly its default?

The real horror of this entire affair is the fact that those factions – the ones that believed it absolutely crucial to attack their own leader in the midst of Brexit chaos and the gradual rise of fascism in the West – won decisively. They are the Labour Party now.

Their legacy is Keir Starmer, a man whose level of ideological opposition to an increasingly unhinged and harmful Conservative Party can best be described as “a complaint to Ofcom about a particularly spicy episode of Emmerdale”. A man who looks like what DALL·E Mini would come up with if you typed in the words “politician” and “default”.

This leads us to ask perhaps the most pressing question raised by the Forde report: what exactly is the Labour Party in 2022? Who is it supposed to represent? What is its purpose? At this point, it feels like a repository for right wingers who are still self-aware enough not to put “Tory” in their Tinder bio.

It certainly operates that way, with large swathes of the leadership seemingly only there to undermine its members. It certainly doesn’t represent the people who canvassed for Corbyn in the rain during the 2017 and 2019 elections, whom the report makes clear were considered the enemy by some of the very people they canvassed for.

The phrase “Tory-lite” is thrown around in relation to Labour quite a lot nowadays, but that doesn’t really seem fair. The Tories have beliefs and goals outside of complete self-detonation. They aren’t particularly good beliefs, and their goals may be described as “monstrous” at best, but at least they have direction.

Labour is more like one of those bugs that has its brain taken over by a parasite and then tries to get eaten by a bird. It is an organism that exists only to die, over and over again, for the benefit of the surrounding political ecosystem. It didn’t necessarily have to be that way, but that is the path its right-wing contingent chose for it.

It would be nice to think that maybe one day the citizens of this country will collectively realise that undermining the political agenda of people who genuinely want to do good is not an effective long-term strategy for the UK. That perhaps choosing in every situation to elect people who at best will do nothing and at worst will do something horrible is counterintuitive. Maybe they’ll realise that being afraid of healthy and positive change is the logic of a heroin addict, with the difference being that at least heroin has an upside.

With the release of the findings of the Forde inquiry, though, it’s clear that we still have a long way to go before effective change can be made. And when your country’s main political opposition is preoccupied with purging itself of anything that typifies it as an opposition in the first place, where does that change even begin?

MargotLedbetter Tue 26-Jul-22 08:46:03

Casdon

Same old same old. This was going on long before Keir Starmer came into post, blaming him is disingenuous.
To succeed by gaining power to govern Labour has to be the party of the voters, not the party of the members Glorianny, and that’s a big part of the problem.

You're absolutely right, Casdon. All the polls indicate that what the majority of people want is something more to the centre and that a party that offered that would have a huge advantage.

My nephew who was born in the SE but lives now in Wales canvassed for Labour at the last two elections and said that even in the South Wales valleys, knocking on doors of traditional stone terraces full of former mine workers, there was very little support for Corbyn and the far left. They didn't believe any of the promises Corbyn was making.

I resigned as a party member as a result of the response to the Women's Declaration and most of the women I know still in the constituency party talk all the time of the misogyny they encounter. Most hate Labour's adoption of transgender ideology and the damage that's doing to women's rights and see it as a terrible shot in the foot that is costing them votes.

M0nica Tue 26-Jul-22 07:45:53

And which party are pigs and which men, I cannot tell. They all look the same to me.

M0nica Tue 26-Jul-22 07:44:59

No way, Casdon I would do a Ben Wallace and refuse to stand.

And I think both parties are equally nasty and indulge in dirty tricks and daggers in the back.

Together they remind me of the last chapter of Animal Farm
Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

MayBee70 Mon 25-Jul-22 23:59:58

Well, Keir, with some sort of coalition with the LibDems and Greens is the only alternative to a government that, even it’s own ex MP’s agree has to go.

Casdon Mon 25-Jul-22 22:58:20

Monica for PM it is then, hopefully you can sort it all out for us! I don’t agree with you actually, Labour fight it out loud and publicly, Tories fight dirty and undercover. I know which I prefer.

M0nica Mon 25-Jul-22 22:50:08

I find it fascinating watching the various Labour Party factions tearing each other apart. A constant reminder why I have never voed Labour. The Conservatives do it with so much more style, but I have never voted for them either.

Casdon Mon 25-Jul-22 22:46:18

No, Starmer’s realism Grany, and he’s the Labour Party leader in the real world. I was genuinely glad to see your post tonight though, that Tory leadership debate was the most depressing TV ever.