So the Final 2 - Liz and Rishi

RichmondPark1

Why when it's so important that we have a PM is it not standard practice to have a second in command who is appointed carefully and thoughtfully during normal times rather than in a rush when a PM dies/leaves?. When the PM leaves this person steps seamlessly into place and the country is never without a leader.

That’s a thought

Casdon

Whitewavemark2

We are now in a situation where there are two candidates with opposing views over tax and other serious issues.

Whoever gets in as PM will have 2 years to do their worse.

Only 0.001% of the population will have voted for this PM.

It is not democracy.

It is British democracy though *Whitewavemark, isn’t it? We elect a party, entrust them to elect a leader, and to carry out their manifesto. Even if we had proportional representation, the horse dealing between the parties, and the election of a leader would be the same. I understand what you’re saying, but we do have to suck it up unless there’s a revolution to overthrow this government. How do you see an alternative method of appointing a PM working?

Yes I see your point. But it honestly doesn’t sit well with me.

I shall give it further thought.

nanna8

As a total outsider I think they both look very dodgy indeed. Can’t they get anyone better than those two ?

That's what my Australian relatives said about the choice there ?

Why when it's so important that we have a PM is it not standard practice to have a second in command who is appointed carefully and thoughtfully during normal times rather than in a rush when a PM dies/leaves?. When the PM leaves this person steps seamlessly into place and the country is never without a leader.

Whitewavemark2

We are now in a situation where there are two candidates with opposing views over tax and other serious issues.

Whoever gets in as PM will have 2 years to do their worse.

Only 0.001% of the population will have voted for this PM.

It is not democracy.

It is British democracy though *Whitewavemark, isn’t it? We elect a party, entrust them to elect a leader, and to carry out their manifesto. Even if we had proportional representation, the horse dealing between the parties, and the election of a leader would be the same. I understand what you’re saying, but we do have to suck it up unless there’s a revolution to overthrow this government. How do you see an alternative method of appointing a PM working?

As a total outsider I think they both look very dodgy indeed. Can’t they get anyone better than those two ?

We are now in a situation where there are two candidates with opposing views over tax and other serious issues.

Whoever gets in as PM will have 2 years to do their worse.

Only 0.001% of the population will have voted for this PM.

It is not democracy.

We now have chaos at Dover, nearly 7 million people waiting more than a year for surgery, a £42 billion pound bill for Brexit, high inflation, soaring energy costs and war in Ukraine.

Nobody can think that either of these candidates are the right people to lead us through this can they?

Which of course happened when members chose Mr Corbyn
Foxie48 when MP’s knew what he was like.
But this is how they are chosen and is more democratic.
If we do not want them we can vote them out at the next election.
So really yes this is the democratic option.

I can't help thinking that when an MP is popular with the party membership but unpopular with constituency MPs, there's a big problem if they become leader/PM. MPs know far more about their fellow MPs, the membership only knows what they are told by the media. I am very concerned about Truss potentially becoming PM, it is not the time to have tax cuts.

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2

This

“It's completely alienating, as a citizen in a so-called democracy, to stand by watching for weeks on end, as a tiny group of people decide who will take control of government, the whole rotten process cloaked in media-manufactured legitimacy.”
Michael Dougan.

This is what makes me feel so uncomfortable. It doesn’t feel very democratic to me, and I really don’t think that a prime minister chosen by a miniscule amount if people has any legitimacy whatsoever.

Did you feel the same when Tony Blair handed over to Gordon Brown?

The electorate didn’t get a say then either.

I don’t have an issue with the MPs and party members electing a prime minister from within their ranks, I can’t see how the whole electorate could have a say in that process.
I think what’s different about this leadership election is that the new leader is usually the choice of a very high percentage of MPs and members. With Gordon Brown he was a landslide choice for example. This time Liz Truss was a poor third initially with the MPs, who know the candidates and their capabilities best. I’ve got no doubt that Rishi Sunak is eminently more capable to do the job than she is, so this feels like a purely ideological election, she will be a puppet PM.

GrannyRose15

Is there anyone on here prepared to give a new prime minister a chance?

I'd be prepared to give Rishi Sunak a chance. At least he had the good taste to resign and thereby, it is alleged, trigger the prime minister's resignation.

Liz Truss seems to me like Johnson in a dress, and we'll just get more of the same old flannel.

MayBee70

Out of interest, how many people actually look up an MP’s voting record?

I looked up all the contenders originally. None of them had a voting record that impressed me, the least of all Tom Tugendhat.
However, I was unable to work out which were free votes in acccordance with conscience and beliefs, and which were party lines that had had to be obeyed.

Of course!

Quoting another instance of illegitimacy doesn’t make it any better.

The Tories do seem to make it a habit though.

Whitewavemark2

This

“It's completely alienating, as a citizen in a so-called democracy, to stand by watching for weeks on end, as a tiny group of people decide who will take control of government, the whole rotten process cloaked in media-manufactured legitimacy.”
Michael Dougan.

This is what makes me feel so uncomfortable. It doesn’t feel very democratic to me, and I really don’t think that a prime minister chosen by a miniscule amount if people has any legitimacy whatsoever.

Did you feel the same when Tony Blair handed over to Gordon Brown?

The electorate didn’t get a say then either.

This

“It's completely alienating, as a citizen in a so-called democracy, to stand by watching for weeks on end, as a tiny group of people decide who will take control of government, the whole rotten process cloaked in media-manufactured legitimacy.”
Michael Dougan.

This is what makes me feel so uncomfortable. It doesn’t feel very democratic to me, and I really don’t think that a prime minister chosen by a miniscule amount if people has any legitimacy whatsoever.

I don’t eat duck or bacon and don’t know what that’s got to do with this argument unless we are talking about gammon. Back to Truss who is so wooden and just changes her views to suit her ambitions it makes you dizzy. Her faux pas have already been made into a funny video on Twitter. She’s bound to give a Johnson a peerage.

MayBee70

DaisyAnne

GrannyRose15

Is there anyone on here prepared to give a new prime minister a chance?

Do we have a choice?

I’d quite like a totally new government…..

I wish. We don't seem to have that choice ... yet.

Sunak or maybe his supporters apparently said that if Truss wins, Tories will lose the next election. Does he or they not think they’ll lose next time anyway?

The literal translation of foie gras is fat liver. Much of it comes from ducks, the meat from which is eaten. My French teacher used to say, when people complained about foie gras "you eat duck don't you?"

growstuff

MayBee She is, perhaps, not right-wing in the way people usually understand it. She is a libertarian, who does not believe that the state should have many powers at all. She would probably feel most at home with the US Republicans.

She’d probably feel most at home with the Tweenies. I don’t think she deeply believes in anything at all except herself and being patted on the head for being a good girl. I don’t like him, but I do feel sorry for Sunak because it’s not a level playing field, he’s clearly head and shoulders above her to all except the numpties.

MayBee She is, perhaps, not right-wing in the way people usually understand it. She is a libertarian, who does not believe that the state should have many powers at all. She would probably feel most at home with the US Republicans.

Liz never mentions public services, the climate crisis or levelling up. it’s all tax cuts…blah blah blah….I will not rest till British apples are top of the tree …blah blah blah…tax cuts …..then she smiles as if she’s been so clever. Can’t believe such a cardboard cut out is thought to be the best out of 350 or so MPs.

MayBee70 I look up MPs voting records. It's the measure of them.

Tory MPs including Truss and Sunak mostly vote against
-measure to prevent climate change
-raising benefits at least in line with prices
-a bankers bonus tax
-laws to promote equality and human rights

They mostly vote for
-a reduction in spending on welfare benefits
- reducing the rate of corporation tax

Grandmama

I lost interest when Kemi Badenoch was voted out. She hadn't prepared months in advance, apparently it was a last minute decision round the kitchen table, no huge teams etc behind her like Truss and Sunak - and look how well she did. She came out on top in my opinion on the ITV debate. Truss or Sunak - I despair.

Out of interest, where do you think in the political spectrum Kemi stands?