Port of Dover

Prentice From reading UK and French sources four or five border guards were one and a half hours late because of problems getting to Dover. Don't you think you are being a little harsh? If people have never been late for work due to unforeseen circumstances then I don't think they can have spent much time in the workplace!

JaneJudge

there have been posts on here saying there should be restrictions on who can vote and I'm not the only one who finds that vulgar. You either believe in democracy or you don't and democracy means the lower classes can vote (as cn women, the disabled etc young and old) Our votes were hard fought for and just because someone has voted in a way I disagree with, it doesn't mean I think they are stupid (manipulated maybe but not stupid)

But there have been problems with the crossings for years, it was inevitable this would happen with tighter restrictions and swathes of people going on holiday via tunnel or ferry. I suppose they could always reopen the sink* ports but are there enough ferries?

*spelling in cultural reference #cinque

I also agree with you JaneJudge also with the refreshingly balanced posts from Prentice
Not that Brexit is a popular topic of conversation between my friends and acquaintances I do have friends that voted leave I would never be arrogant enough to call them stupid or any other derogatory remark They are certainly not stupid but just had a different view to me.
Brexit has certainly had its problems but who thinks they know exactly what will occur in the future - it might well end up completely different

Urmstongran

Hmm. You intellectuals really have no idea what goes on within working class communities sometimes! The ‘Red Wall’. In Salford city Himself worked in a factory. A friend worked as a site manager in the city of Manchester, refurbishment and upgrading of the huge hospital. That project took 3 years to complete. Now, think ‘Boys from the Blackstuff’. White vans every morning, picking workers (plasterers, brickies) up en route. Arriving at the factory gates ‘any jobs going?’. Promises of cash in hand, no cards, vastly reduced rates for their Polish & other van load. They had no chance at the highly unionised large factory and with the project manager. But thanks to Tony Blair ‘let ‘em all in’ policy, these men did get work more often than not on small sites, family owned, around Salford and north Manchester - Oldham, Shaw, Haywood etc. The gang masters soon learnt where best to head for. Pubs & working men’s clubs in our area knew what was happening. Why would some ‘bosses’ take on their sons & nephews when they could chance cheap rates? These men were sending sterling home, being exchanged at great rates & their families back home were benefiting greatly. They were living 5 & 6 to a house, dossing down on mattresses, sharing rooms, living cheap as chips. No roots. Our lads and lasses couldn’t compete by ‘working cheap’. They had high rents or mortgages to pay. Their sterling wasn’t being exchanged for anything higher! As you can imagine, over several years, this built up a lot of ill feeling. All I can say is that there are two sides to the Brexit story. Blue collar workers voted Leave. The white collar workers, office based, were shocked at the result. Up here? We weren’t.

And you people with two homes don't really understand that working class people can also make intellectual thoughts come together into a coherent world view. "Our lads and lasses" FGS. So British people exploiting immigrants was the immigrants fault, was it?

In case you were wondering, "intellectual" isn't an insult. Except among the s-----.

Ooops.

Anecdote doesn't trump data, Ug.

Now tell me why Sunderland, with barely a sniff of any sort of immigrant population/workers, voted Leave?

But there have been problems with the crossings for years,

Perhaps I've been very lucky, but I've been travelling by ferry to France for the best part of 30 years and have never encountered any problem with the ferries, apart from the time when our ferry was damaged by fire the day before before the sailing and we were sent to an alternative at Dover.

The current situation is not normal. Please, people, stop trying to make out that it is.

More, democracy is based on trust by voters in the integrity and accountability of those they are voting for. Whichever side of any political divide you are on, you should be able to vote trusting that the party you are voting for has the best interests of the country at its core, and if it becomes apparent this is not so, there is redress.

Both the Leave leaders, and the current government, have knowingly and intentionally acted in the interests of a select group, and continue to destroy trust and accountability in both direct and indirect attacks on democracy.

Hmm. You intellectuals really have no idea what goes on within working class communities sometimes! The ‘Red Wall’. In Salford city Himself worked in a factory. A friend worked as a site manager in the city of Manchester, refurbishment and upgrading of the huge hospital. That project took 3 years to complete. Now, think ‘Boys from the Blackstuff’. White vans every morning, picking workers (plasterers, brickies) up en route. Arriving at the factory gates ‘any jobs going?’. Promises of cash in hand, no cards, vastly reduced rates for their Polish & other van load. They had no chance at the highly unionised large factory and with the project manager. But thanks to Tony Blair ‘let ‘em all in’ policy, these men did get work more often than not on small sites, family owned, around Salford and north Manchester - Oldham, Shaw, Haywood etc. The gang masters soon learnt where best to head for. Pubs & working men’s clubs in our area knew what was happening. Why would some ‘bosses’ take on their sons & nephews when they could chance cheap rates? These men were sending sterling home, being exchanged at great rates & their families back home were benefiting greatly. They were living 5 & 6 to a house, dossing down on mattresses, sharing rooms, living cheap as chips. No roots. Our lads and lasses couldn’t compete by ‘working cheap’. They had high rents or mortgages to pay. Their sterling wasn’t being exchanged for anything higher! As you can imagine, over several years, this built up a lot of ill feeling. All I can say is that there are two sides to the Brexit story. Blue collar workers voted Leave. The white collar workers, office based, were shocked at the result. Up here? We weren’t.

there have been posts on here saying there should be restrictions on who can vote and I'm not the only one who finds that vulgar

Really!!!

I think not. Perhaps you could point us at some.

I 'have' said it in the past, but only jokingly. I would never, however annoyed or frustrated I might be, want to remove the one person one vote element of our democracy.

Unlike, of course, our current government who will only allow you to vote if you can identify yourself to their satisfaction.

democracy means the lower classes can vote

I don't think anybody here has ever said that the lower classes shouldn't vote.

However proper democracy is based on an educated and thoughtful electorate excercising its democratic rights. People who think Boris is an OK bloke, bit of a buffoon, but just one of the lads, and that cutting off all our trading relationships with our nearest neighbours is pretty sensible because they all hate us? I do find that difficult to justify.

What sensible comments JaneJudge and I agree with you wholeheartedly.

there have been posts on here saying there should be restrictions on who can vote and I'm not the only one who finds that vulgar. You either believe in democracy or you don't and democracy means the lower classes can vote (as cn women, the disabled etc young and old) Our votes were hard fought for and just because someone has voted in a way I disagree with, it doesn't mean I think they are stupid (manipulated maybe but not stupid)

But there have been problems with the crossings for years, it was inevitable this would happen with tighter restrictions and swathes of people going on holiday via tunnel or ferry. I suppose they could always reopen the sink* ports but are there enough ferries?

*spelling in cultural reference #cinque

Galaxy

I think partly Brexit was one of those consequences Mamie. I think the red wall constituencies voting Tory was partly another.

Galaxy and I have different opinions about this, but I think we are able to discuss it sensibly.

Brexit and the Red Wall constituencies voting Tory were a result of people believing what they were told and thinking that all those foreigners were out to get them and that the only person who could save them was Boris. They believed the lies they were told and they cannot see them for what they really are.

If that's not stupidity, gullibility, then what is it?

Galaxy

I wonder how long it will be before it us acknowledged that calling swathes of the electorate stupid has long term unexpected consequences.

I really struggle to find an alternative explanation that isn’t derogatory, so I avoid getting personal if I possibly can.

I think partly Brexit was one of those consequences Mamie. I think the red wall constituencies voting Tory was partly another.

Mamie

The juxtaposed controls at Dover and Calais meant that your passport was checked quickly at the UK border and sometimes you were then waved straight through by the French. The difference at all ports since the full post Brexit regulations came into force is that passports are scanned and then stamped. This takes longer than previous checks, so queues build up.

This is true, but due to Covid has been exacerbated as staffing levels are lower according to reports.If French officials then have a low staff turnout then it is a perfect storm.
Until this problem is sorted out, do not take your holiday starting from Dover, use other ports or even better have a staycation as they are calling it.
We had our very first holiday in Cornwall this year, in May, and oh what a beautiful place it is, I so wish we had been there before.Will definitely go back next year.
As to Brexit, nobody is being forced to accept it has happened and are free to stay bitter until the end of time, but it will do no good, nor do you any good either.
Younger people will be used to it as time goes on, and they are our future.
I choose to accept that more people wished to leave than wished to stay.
There needs to be more goodwill on both sides with our politicians and the EU leaders for ensuring things work well.
There has been too much acrimony all round.
These are my thoughts and I accept others may feel differently.

Genuine question Galaxy. What might those consequences be? (Apart from hurt feelings).

I wonder how long it will be before it us acknowledged that calling swathes of the electorate stupid has long term unexpected consequences.

It is vital that we do not just "move on" without explaining, as Dickens has done so clearly that the Leave vote was illegitimate and the consequences have caused incalculable damage to our country.

I wonder how long it will take for this to be widely acknowledged.

Well said, Dickens.

Great post Dickens.

It's good to remind the cultists that their vote has destroyed a part of some people's lives. A part which might well be airily dismissed by Leavers as insignificant, but which meant a lot to the person who has lost. It's like losing the use of a limb. Yes, you have to get on and adapt to being without it, but it doesn't make the loss particularly easier to bear.

It appears that the UK government refused the finance for the upgrades that both sides knew were needed at Dover. Calais port has been upgraded as has Ouistreham.

The juxtaposed controls at Dover and Calais meant that your passport was checked quickly at the UK border and sometimes you were then waved straight through by the French. The difference at all ports since the full post Brexit regulations came into force is that passports are scanned and then stamped. This takes longer than previous checks, so queues build up.

I can see why there may be bigger hold ups on a ferry for lorry drivers but having never took a car to France what are the differences to pre Brexit ?
I regularly go to Jersey you still have to check in, your car has to be registered boarding cards issued and ID has to be checked
It takes a minute or so a car sometimes longer if the driver is not organised
Surely pre Brexit they didn’t just wave cars through without any checks so why the big difference?

We've never been members of the EU and we have never had any issues crossing borders. A quick check and you're off. Some just wave you through and glimpse at the passport. Scandinavia was a bit worse, more checks.

Well, said, Dickens.