Water should be nationalised

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Water

The three water companies, North, South and East were amalgamated into Scottish Water in 2005. It goes against my grain to have utility companies run for profit.

Especially when Share Holders come before maintenance and improvements- and even more so when it allows said companies to pour tons and tons of raw sewage into waterways.

My displeasure at my water provider’s behaviour cannot be registered.

The CEOs and shareholders benefit to the tune of untold millions from their captured customers payments.

I wouldn't see Not for Profit as akin to Nationalising a company. Although, I imagine some would think that to be splitting hairs. I think 'Not for Profit' could be a good model for the future of natural monopolies. I wouldn't want to return to state-owned Nationalisation. But then I see Nationalisation as pretty much the communist end of Socialism. Once again, I understand that others wouldn't.

The good thing about not for profit to my mind is that they can be held to account more readily than a nationalised service. They are also self sustaining, so because there are no shareholders they don’t overcharge, but they do charge the rate they need to be able to maintain and improve services. It’s not a perfect model, but it does have advantages.

DaisyAnne

I wouldn't see Not for Profit as akin to Nationalising a company. Although, I imagine some would think that to be splitting hairs. I think 'Not for Profit' could be a good model for the future of natural monopolies. I wouldn't want to return to state-owned Nationalisation. But then I see Nationalisation as pretty much the communist end of Socialism. Once again, I understand that others wouldn't.

Norway is the richest country in Europe. It thrives on a capitalist highly regulated economy with a large area of the economy owned by the government as well as the government investing in various private companies.

You wouldn’t describe Norway as a communist country?

When Europeans first arrived in NZ in the early 1800s, they bought land from the Maori people for tiny amounts of money.
The Maori thought it was a good deal because they had no concept of land ownership at that time. Land was the earth along with the water and the air! Nature's bounty.

I think I must belong to their culture because, although I have become used to land being bought and sold, I am still not sure about water and certainly not air.

Now, rich Americans, Chinese (and others) are buying up whole tracts of land and islands in NZ presumably so they can survive there when the rest of the planet is too contaminated to support life.

The Māori is right imo, you cannot separate it.

Whitewavemark2

DaisyAnne

I wouldn't see Not for Profit as akin to Nationalising a company. Although, I imagine some would think that to be splitting hairs. I think 'Not for Profit' could be a good model for the future of natural monopolies. I wouldn't want to return to state-owned Nationalisation. But then I see Nationalisation as pretty much the communist end of Socialism. Once again, I understand that others wouldn't.

Norway is the richest country in Europe. It thrives on a capitalist highly regulated economy with a large area of the economy owned by the government as well as the government investing in various private companies.

You wouldn’t describe Norway as a communist country?

I don't think I described any country as a communist country, did !? I certainly didn't intend to. I'm sure I said that I did not expect everyone would agree with my views.

I see nationalisation as old-fashioned as the intended outcomes of the "pure" capitalism that we have had thrust on us. That doesn't mean I have any answers. I like many of the choices Norway makes. I certainly would not want to disrespect what they do.

I wonder how lucky those who know what they believe is right are. I hope to continue questioning it all for a long time yet. When I stop, I will stop being interested in politics.

We should, after more than forty years, be able to assess the result of Thatcher's key policy of privitisation, which Harold MacMillan described as "selling off the family silver"

Let's just look at the privitisation of water. The water companies may have distributed profits to their shareholders but we all pay more, we have leaks everywhere and untreated sewage being routinely discharged into our rivers.

What should be the verdict on water privitisation?

Says it all really.

DaisyAnne

Whitewavemark2

DaisyAnne

I wouldn't see Not for Profit as akin to Nationalising a company. Although, I imagine some would think that to be splitting hairs. I think 'Not for Profit' could be a good model for the future of natural monopolies. I wouldn't want to return to state-owned Nationalisation. But then I see Nationalisation as pretty much the communist end of Socialism. Once again, I understand that others wouldn't.

Norway is the richest country in Europe. It thrives on a capitalist highly regulated economy with a large area of the economy owned by the government as well as the government investing in various private companies.

You wouldn’t describe Norway as a communist country?

I don't think I described any country as a communist country, did !? I certainly didn't intend to. I'm sure I said that I did not expect everyone would agree with my views.

I see nationalisation as old-fashioned as the intended outcomes of the "pure" capitalism that we have had thrust on us. That doesn't mean I have any answers. I like many of the choices Norway makes. I certainly would not want to disrespect what they do.

I wonder how lucky those who know what they believe is right are. I hope to continue questioning it all for a long time yet. When I stop, I will stop being interested in politics.

Not sure how you can separate the two?

My description would be that of a mixed economy. Most European countries have a mixture to a lessor or greater extent.

It is only dogma in the U.K. that prevents it from following a sensible path, as it prevents so much so much else.

Casdon

Says it all really.

What does it mean Casdon when it says the data for Dwr Cymru is for operations in England only?

Not sure how you can separate the two?

Separate the two what, Whitewave?

Casdon

Says it all really.

The problem is that rivers often flow through more than one water board area or are on borders.

senedd.wales/senedd-now/news/over-105-000-incidents-of-untreated-sewage-being-dumped-into-welsh-rivers

Unfortunately, Wales still has a way to go

DaisyAnne

^Not sure how you can separate the two?^

Separate the two what, Whitewave?

Well when talking about communism, you are talking about a whole economic system, based on the state ownership of the means of production.

So what I meant was that if you talk about nationalising say E.g. a utility as communism, I sort of think that is using the wrong term. I think you may describe state ownership of say the water supply as at a stretch a mixed economy, but even that is pushing it a tad imo. I would rather see it as a widening of the state control over a vital and necessary resource.

As an aside - excellent podcast with James O’Brian and Professor Brian Cox. Uplifting.

While I await Casdon reply, I noted from 2020-2021 figures that Dwr Cymru were not the best performers but top of the average with 3 companies above us in the Best achieving categories.

So private wins on targets?

Scotland has it’s own problems with discharges, etc.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58040852

Whitewavemark2

DaisyAnne

Not sure how you can separate the two?

Separate the two what, Whitewave?

Well when talking about communism, you are talking about a whole economic system, based on the state ownership of the means of production.

So what I meant was that if you talk about nationalising say E.g. a utility as communism, I sort of think that is using the wrong term. I think you may describe state ownership of say the water supply as at a stretch a mixed economy, but even that is pushing it a tad imo. I would rather see it as a widening of the state control over a vital and necessary resource.

As an aside - excellent podcast with James O’Brian and Professor Brian Cox. Uplifting.

Thank you for clarifying. Nationalisation is state ownership. I'm not sure why you think I am using the wrong term. It suits my thinking; I'm sorry it doesn't work for you. I will try and be more all-encompassing in future. Or do we simply disagree on state control?

I do like the idea of people control - I call it democracy. We seem to have lost it and gained more "state", as in government control, than we ever had. They do say political extremes meet at the bottom of the horse shoe.

Your comments about a mixed economy seem to be taking from the far-right and far-left and calling it mixed. I would much rather we started to allow local control of the production of energy, with people closer to the decisions about their fuel. I would like to see new ideas thrive. I don't believe these will come from doing what we did in the past. We need unconventional thinking and new perspectives.

We have dug up the body of the past with this "Conservative" government. I do hope we don't dig up the body of old Labour (or even old New Labour) to replace it.

Pantglas2

While I await Casdon reply, I noted from 2020-2021 figures that Dwr Cymru were not the best performers but top of the average with 3 companies above us in the Best achieving categories.

So private wins on targets?

This was where the table was from *Pantglas. Dwr Cymru operates in western England as well as in Wales, and the report was about operations in England only, as so many of them are. I can’t find any performance reports which meaningfully compare Welsh and Scottish performance with the services in England, so I’d be interested to see where you found the data you mention. What seems to matter to the Environment Agency is current performance against the strategies to improve it, which seems to be where most of the really poor performers are failing - so eg no plans to repair broken pipes infrastructure results in more wasted water and very low performance scores.

The table I spotted was on ofwat.gov.uk Casdon service and delivery 2020-2021 which are the most recent figures.

Anglian, Severn Trent and Portsmouth were sector leading with Dwr Cymru and Hafren Dyfrdwy topping the average group, although several companies below were top performers on some outcomes.

I don’t know Pantglas. according to the Water consumer Council, the two Welsh water companies rate second and third overall in England and Wales.
www.ccwater.org.uk/households/company-performance/
There are so many different comparators (and agencies monitoring their performance) that it’s hard to see the wood for the trees, but they are near the top on the vast majority of comparators I’ve found.

Has anybody found anything that includes Scotland too?

Of course water should be nationalized! We need a national strategy to ensure we have enough, that it can be piped across the country and that sewage is treated properly and not dumped untreated into rivers. The present companies are monopolies and cash cows for their directors and shareholders. They are not investing enough into stopping leaks and treating wastewater. Labour should plan to nationalize all the public utilities as soon as they are elected.

Nationilastion is to place the dead hand of government on anything and into the hands of its box tickers. There is no incentive to work or think only to take sit down money and all the perks. Where I do agree with most of you is to have a national water grid in the same way as we have a national grid for electricity and gas. Remember the only reason one goes into business is to make money, nothing else