Transphobic Bullying

Ah this nonsense again. I'd address it again but it doesn't actually matter

I can teach empathy but can't force others to learn

And I can walk away from it, I have so much more to enjoy in life

?

Doodledog great minds indeed I think you made similar points in a different, sometimes better way.
That's very reassuring about the screening before victim/offender meetings. Sometimes it's portrayed in the media as 'therapy' for the offender which suggests the victim's needs are the lesser consideration. Of course I know that victims don't have to agree.

I've seen it elsewhere recently on GN Doodledog. Seems to be the latest 'thing' when the person being disagreed with has nothing more to offer.

the connections constantly made to incidents where abusive people use trans as an excuse for their actions

That is because society is being changed in ways which mean there is much more opportunity for abusive people (usually men) to be abusive.

Why would anyone support that?

Measures are taken to prevent shop-lifting although not all customers shoplift.
Measures are taken to prevent terrorism at airports and in planes although not all travellers are terrorists.
Measures were taken to provide safety & privacy to female people but these are now being abandoned, while pretending they are not.

As an aside, I do wish that when there is disagreement there wouldn't be an assumption that the poster disagreeing, doesn't understand.

The condescension, rudeness (and lack of empathy!) are quite breathtaking, aren't they, Smileless? Thank you for pointing that out.

Cross posted, Rosie - sorry (but great minds think alike!)

I have also had Graves and thyrotoxicosis. I narrowly avoided radiotherapy by insisting on coming off all drugs for a month before the appointment. If I hadn't, I would be on thyroxine for the rest of my life.

A child isn't bullied for wearing glasses, having ginger hair, being fat, being thin, being bad at sports or being academic etc etc because of beliefs the bully holds about them.

They're bullied because there's something about them that doesn't apply to the bully, and as has been said over and over again, that makes the bully feel good/better about themselves.

No one that I can see is imagining that there's no connection between the media coverage of trans issues, and trans slurs in schools being used to bully other children. In fact that very connection has been made on numerous occasions, when it's been said that trans insults are the latest 'thing'.

The OP of this thread is about transphobic bullying. Bullying is seeking to harm, intimidate or coerce someone perceived as vulnerable. Prejudice is a preconceived opinion not based on reason or actual experience.

Prejudice can lead to bullying but bullying can exist without prejudice.

As an aside, I do wish that when there is disagreement there wouldn't be an assumption that the poster disagreeing, doesn't understand.

That was an interesting read, FN. It makes a lot of sense.

I don't know whether empathy can be taught. Very young children can't feel it, of course, but older ones do. I don't know if that is because they have been taught it (either by example or more formally) or if it comes naturally to them.

Certainly people with personality disorders don't feel empathy, and I don't think they can be taught it, as their brains are configured differently from 'normal'. Presumably most of us are somewhere in the middle between pathologically empathetic and psychopaths, on some sort of sliding scale. Most people understand where others' boundaries are and respect them even if they don't share them, and for those who can't, schemes where victims of crime talk directly to criminals suggest that there is some scope for teaching it.

I don't know who would be able to teach empathy in schools (as opposed to prisons), though. It could do more harm than good if not dealt with by psychologists, and I don't know if that is in the remit of a Ed Psych? There are those who just don't care if they hurt others - not just criminals, but people who insist that they are just 'straight talking', or believe that trope of 'just saying what everyone else is thinking but is too scared to say'. that is nowhere near axe murdering on the unsympathetic scale, but it is part of the same ability to 'other' anyone who thinks or feels differently from them, and not care if they are hurt. If someone like that is in a class where someone is attempting to teach empathy and doing it badly, they might just end up with more ammunition to use against their targets.

My understanding (from a relative who works in MH in prisons) is that inmates are very carefully screened before being allowed to meet victims, even after therapy - by no means all who apply for the programme are successful.

Thanks for that link FarNorth a really thought provoking article by a professional. I've long thought social transition of young children isn't the harmless activity it's promoted to be.

I read your link too VS. It was interesting but I'm not convinced you can actually 'teach' empathy if the basic element is missing. Empathy as an emotional response comes from within. I'd agree that it's possible to help individuals develop their innate empathy, but that's different to teaching. The medics in the article were observed to have lost empathy For example, it appears that medical training can actually diminish empathy, but on the other hand, physicians can be taught to be more empathic to their patients. surely that's more a case of restoring and developing the empathy that was lost during training. Medical training has, of necessity, to develop a certain level of dispassionate thinking in individuals, so it's perfectly understandable that empathy is reduced.
My grandson is severely autistic with learning difficulties and requires education at a special school, not being capable of enjoying mainstream education. Many of his classmates, like him, have autism as well as learning difficulties and other co-morbidities. They watch Newsround every day and saw about the war in Ukraine. They wanted to help the refugees fleeing Ukraine, with no prompting from anyone, and asked what they could do. That surely was their inborn empathy along with sympathy? They organised donations to be boxed and sent to Poland. On the other hand I have an adult relative with mild autism who has learned 'social skills' that could be thought of as empathy, but there is no emotional element, just an adherence to the 'rules' he was taught from childhood. It started with it being impolite to stare at his teacher's facial disfigurement.

Mollygo and VS hope you both resolve your health issues. My mother had thyrotoxicosis, had hers destroyed by radioactive iodine and then took thyroxine for the rest of her life which worked.

My beliefs are protected in law. I will continue to express them.

G.
You always put exactly what I feel is being perpetrated by some TRA. You say,
I think if you don't understand that what you might see as reasonable and justified criticism can become in the hands of others absolute and utter prejudice and that by emphasising and attributing blame you feed in to that prejudice and so into bullying then you really don't understand much about equality or discrimination
What you have written here explains what I see again and again happening by those TRA who see themselves as making reasonable and justified criticism of those concerned about female rights. They refuse to acknowledge that some trans are using trans status for wrongdoing, hiding their attitude behind the one true fact, accepted by all, that not all trans are doing that.
By attributing and emphasising blame towards anyone concerned about that sort of trans wrongdoing, you encourage and feed into any possibility of prejudice thus making it more likely that people will see all trans as the same. This denies safety and equality to women and trans who have no desire to do harm.

Glorianny

Doodledog

VS, people have suggested over and over that it is not about people picking on a minority, but about them using whatever words are 'in' as powerful.

You ignore this, and keep coming back to transphobia. You may not agree, but why not tell us what you think about our ideas?

I think if you don't understand that what you might see as reasonable and justified criticism can become in the hands of others absolute and utter prejudice and that by emphasising and attributing blame you feed in to that prejudice and so into bullying then you really don't understand much about equality or discrimination.
Women were and are discriminated against because of beliefs people hold about them
People of other races are discriminated against because of beliefs people hold about them.
All prejudice is sourced by people who say things like "I have nothing against X except......."
Because at one end of prejudice there is what seem like quite nice people, who say they really don't mean any harm, but.... And at the other end are people who are willing to kill because of prejudice.
Imagining that there is no connection between the stories in the media, which target trans people, the prejudice expressed towards them, the connections constantly made to incidents where abusive people use trans as an excuse for their actions, and linking that to all transition, isn't linked to children bullying, and that transphobia isn't part of that is denying the obvious.

None of that is based on what I said at all.

Ah, glorianny is here...

Well I suppose I may as well pass the baton for a bit then

Lol

Thanks FarNorth

I appreciate you sharing that. I've already read it and I don't have a strong opinion either way at the moment, I'm just watching and waiting, this issue is delicate and I don't think anyone is in favour of life altering mistakes being made.

Of course if a child self identifies as trans it would be my place to listen and acknowledge. I'm not qualified for more.

But I'm really interested in the idea that empathy can't be taught, especially as the mother of an autistic child who is learning empathy (this is why we have so many animals, they are a perfect place to start) so it surprises me that anyone thinks that.

Even adults can be taught empathy

More later, I've achieved a lot today and we have had some really interesting discussion here in the last few days thanks to this thread but I'm about ready to throw my phone out of the nearest window if it means not looking at it so often.

I need to be back at work, I don't have a brain that can just exist unless i force it too.

You can certainly teach, or at least enforce respect.

Some people are simply unable to feel empathy.

Doodledog

*VS*, people have suggested over and over that it is not about people picking on a minority, but about them using whatever words are 'in' as powerful.

You ignore this, and keep coming back to transphobia. You may not agree, but why not tell us what you think about our ideas?

I think if you don't understand that what you might see as reasonable and justified criticism can become in the hands of others absolute and utter prejudice and that by emphasising and attributing blame you feed in to that prejudice and so into bullying then you really don't understand much about equality or discrimination.
Women were and are discriminated against because of beliefs people hold about them
People of other races are discriminated against because of beliefs people hold about them.
All prejudice is sourced by people who say things like "I have nothing against X except......."
Because at one end of prejudice there is what seem like quite nice people, who say they really don't mean any harm, but.... And at the other end are people who are willing to kill because of prejudice.
Imagining that there is no connection between the stories in the media, which target trans people, the prejudice expressed towards them, the connections constantly made to incidents where abusive people use trans as an excuse for their actions, and linking that to all transition, isn't linked to children bullying, and that transphobia isn't part of that is denying the obvious.

I'm sorry to hear of your health situations VioletSky and Mollygo and hope things go well for you .

The Gender Recognition Act doesn't apply to children, of course, and there is evidence that 'social transition' makes it much more likely that a child will continue onto hormone treatment and/or surgery.

I don't think that affirmation of a trans gender identity in a child is kind at all. It cements them into opposite-sex stereotypes and into believing that they must have lifelong medical intervention.

Childhood social transition is portrayed as ‘kind’ and ‘affirming.’ But what are we setting a child up for when puberty hits, if we pretend they are the opposite sex for the best part of their childhood? A clinical psychologist, with over 15 years of experience of working with adults, children and families, explains the inevitable consequences.
www.transgendertrend.com/childhood-social-transition/

I really want to come back to the idea that empathy can be taught.... and also un-taught

Sorry to hear that Mollygo blood tests aren't nice, hope the results are back soon and you get some answers or help.

I should get mine tomorrow, things are delicate at the moment as I only have a set period of time for my body to stabilise itself or the thyroid has to go.

I am living in fear of a reoccurrence of thyrotoxicosis because of the damage it did to my mental and physical health before.

The Gender Recognition Act was based on the claim that trans people are a minute proportion of the population and are people who have received counseling and medical diagnosis of their extreme distress with their biological sex.

That appears to be the case no longer.

If trans people, particularly transwomen, are much more numerous than previously thought and if their trans identity is to be accepted on their say-so alone, then it is unreasonable to expect that all single-sex places should now be, in effect, mixed-sex and should include every opposite-sex person who wishes to be there .

The same applies in schools .

There has to be a solution that doesn't involve denying reality.

Thank you Doodledog- it was a consultation, x-ray and blood tests. As the nurse picked up the 4th phial to fill, I wanted to misquote
“who would have thought the old woman to have had so much blood in her”

I’ll know within the next few days.

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-couch/201810/can-empathy-be-taught

I hope you are well Molly?

VioletSky

I think you are assuming I don't have any ability to rationalise or think for myself

So I don't see a point replying

No, I was responding to the fact that you don't seem to realise that the training you have done almost certainly has Stonewall behind it, and that you thought that the idea that you could question it was 'a funny thing to say'.

Hope you have a good rest