Transphobic Bullying

Elegran I think you are so close to understanding when you can acknowledge that Stonewall making a mistake of some kind might have influence in the playground but can't acknowledge that the way Stonewall and trans people are spoken about or back too would also do the same.

Brilliant, can we always challenge them?

Can we discuss these things in a responsible way?

How would I take responsibility? Especially where children may be exposed to it?

Well I would acknowledge that some people do not accept gender dysphoria and the feeling that one's body might feel like the wrong one. I would acknowledge that some people will not accept that it is possible to live as if you have the body you need and fully integrate into society. I would acknowledge that those beliefs are protected.

I would acknowledge that some people believe that there is a biological similarity between a woman and transwoman or man and a trans man. I would acknowledge that some people believe that we will eventually find a biological reason for the existence of trans people. I would acknowledge that if that happens, and we can test for trans, some people will look to preventing that occuring by terminating a pregnancy and others will look for ways to integrate them in to society ad make adaptations.

I would acknowledge that some very awful things have been said to trans people and that they have experienced some awful verbal or physical attacks as a result by people who don't see themselves as bullies but as fighting for their sex based rights but that actually is not acceptable.

I would also acknowledge that there is a subsection of trans people who have taken the same extreme when it comes to verbal attacks (I don't know if physical attacks have happened but I acknowledge it likely has).

I would also sadly acknowledge that some people have used the protection or rights afforded to trans people in order to achieve an awful agenda of their own but that is not the fault of genuine trans people.

But I would counsel that, people can hold their protected beliefs when it comes to sex and still be accepting accommodating and polite to trans people.

I would acknowledge that, most every day ordinary trans people are not worthy of fear.

I would acknowledge that, there are differences between those who are trans and those who are not trans and that we need to be clear about things like medical treatment to ensure everyone gets the right care.

That women's safe spaces need protecting all the while dangerous and abusive men exist

That sports needs to be fair at the point of entry and any advantage gained by having transitioned should be treated as unfair.

Does all the sound OK?

With children who already have access too what is shared in wider society?

Whether I do that from a place of accepting trans women are women or not actually makes very little difference

Because of transphobia Mollygo

NO VS, but because boys and men are claiming the right to women’s spaces.

Why bring in that teenagers are not reading Gransnet? I don't think any poster expects them to.

It is a fact that transition has been pushed to the front of media and social network attention. Teenagers and children know what is in the media, and they use social networks. A teenager who wants to big themselves up will use whatever weapons come to hand, and the current weapon is transition. Their use of it causes anger, which is reported in the media, which then increases the amount of news about transition that is in the public eye.

The whole thing is a vicious circle, and the power centre of the circle is the PR department of the lobbyists. That is because the reason for the existence of a lobbyist is to influence public opinion by whatever means possible and having their pet cause in the news and argued about in pubs, worlplaces and school playgrounds is a measure of their success.

Stonewall has had a couple of bits of bad publicity lately, and there may be more in the pipeline. That may cut down the amount of column inches their campaign gets in the media, which may lessen the amount of impact the furore makes in the playgrouund, which may cause there to be less trans-generated bullying.

However, bullies do tend to keep on using ways of hurting others, once they see that they are effective..

No-one is justifying transphobic slurs either. Everyone abhors them.

Nobody is justifying someone demanding to know if a shy girl has a penis, though!
Again, barging into someone else's space, regardless of which sex or gender they are or identify as, is bullying.
Anti bullying protocol will cover it.

Elegran I have made very clear that no teenager is interested in gransnet and I am talking about the news media and larger social media like twitter

doodledog as I keep saying I don't agree.

I think some of it is parroting what children are exposed too and they probably don't see themselves as bullies at all because it's fine for adults to say these things and even be applauded for doing so....

Which is why I asked, what can adults do to take responsibility?

Which as the main question in my post, has been avoided entirely

WE ARE NOT SCAPEGOATING TRANS PEOPLE.

Saying that we are is a slur upon many members posting on this thread.

No-one has ever blamed trans people for being trans people, for wishing to use transition as a way to heal their unhappiness at the sex they were born into.

There is blame when clinics don't go deeply into the reasons for that unhappiness and offer other solutions where they would be more appropriate.

There is blame when children are given powerful drugs that have not been cleared for paediatric use, without even deeper investigation into the roots of their unhappiness.

There is blame when organisations put blanket policies into effect that they don't really understand because they have just blindly accepted indoctrination training by a powerful lobbying firm.

There is blame when legislation is made without considering the effect on other demographics, because the lawmakers have been influenced by the lobbyists.

None of these are blaming trans people.

VS, people have suggested over and over that it is not about people picking on a minority, but about them using whatever words are 'in' as powerful.

You ignore this, and keep coming back to transphobia. You may not agree, but why not tell us what you think about our ideas?

I think blaming an organisation which has done sterling work on equality makes some people's prejudices much easier to manage.
As someone who has never been comfortable in a communal changing room and who would have been the girl choosing to change in private I wonder how anyone can justify, demanding to know if someone has a penis, whatever the source of that accusation. If the girl is a transperson with gender dysphoria she will be hurt and distressed, if the girl is a cis woman without a penis she will be hurt and distressed. The only way to stop this is to tell others that it really doesn't matter. She is changing in private and her privacy whatever her physical condition should be respected. Unfortunately all the negative comments about transpeople only serve to fuel abuse which damages all children.

Elegran what justifies transphobic slurs and innocent children being picked on using them?

Why can't people take responsibility?

I'm very sure a minority cannot ultimately bully a majority so we should be able to approach it from a common sense stance rather than an angry often misdirected one

VioletSky

Mollygo

VioletSky

Sorry Mollygo

But even were the child trans, they were in a seperate private cubicle and no concern to anyone else.
Exactly my point! No concern to anyone else. Private changing rooms are exactly that.

But you didn’t say the bangs on the door were because she was using a private cubicle, you said she was accused of having a penis.
*Now why would that be do you think?*

Because of transphobia Mollygo

Because organisations such as Stonewall have lobbied and marketed and PRd to get gender transitioning to the top of the agendas of thousands of Government departments (including educational ones) national organisatiions and global companies, and flooded the media with trans news.

They have made what could have been a bloodless revolution in the perception and treatment of trans people into a bloody battle between demographics, and then labelled those who don't join their army as "transphobic"

Of course schoolchildren who need a way to gain status will use whatever is in the news to do so.

Exactly

So its not going to work with trans slurs yet

But women, well we are a marginalised group but We are not a minority marginalised group

So it makes no sense to be transphobic. Together we are an army.

So my view is, let's stop scapegoating trans people for issues they haven't caused by simply existing. Let's treat them the way we want to be treated.

Otherwise we are being what we hate most, and its not feminism

Exactly my point doodledog

??

It is like being in one of those meetings where you say something and a man comes along to explain it to you and tells you that you haven't grasped his idea.

Which is why the 'c' word hasn't as yet been reclaimed because it seems that the majority of people still see it as an insult.

Exactly my point doodledog

The article does point that out

There are stages to reclaiming a word

It's only successful once a majority of people stop seeing it as an insult

If someone called me a bitch, I'd say, yep, I'm a bitch, very capable of standing up for myself and what I believe in and not taking your crap.

BTW did you know that suffragettes were very successful at this:

The word "suffragettes" was actually first coined as an insult and they have reclaimed it so well it is now a compliment

Yes, I've looked on that thread Doddledog. The only person I know who doesn't find the word offensive is our next door neighbour and she now makes an effort not to use it.

VioletSky

www.theguardian.com/media/mind-your-language/2015/oct/30/power-grab-reclaiming-words-can-be-such-a-bitch

2 points on reclaiming a word

Using it as an insult is not reclaiming it

Reclaiming a word is taking its power away and that must be done by the marginalised group oppressed by it

Yes, we know.

If you are suggesting that I was saying that teachers should somehow reclaim trans slurs, I wasn't at all. I was building on Glorianna*'s idea that 'the C word' has been reclaimed and is now widely used to suggest that if trans slurs were reclaimed they might also lose their power, to make the point that power is not intrinsic in the words themselves, but is given to them by the people who use or hear them.

It was not advice to anyone that the words should be reclaimed .

VS Says "Will it be religion or could women end up losing our right to choose what happens with our own bodies as we have seen in the US?" That is why women are concerned that self-identification as women by men must be accepted without any opportunity to question whether they have male genitalia and and are sexually oriented to prefer women

Women then have no control over who sees their bodies and potentially is lusting after them

It is all very well for trans supporters and activists to tell us that as "women" these trans women have no ulterior motives, or that lesbians pose a similar risk, or that nakedness is natural and nudists don't rape every woman they meet, and so on. There doesn't need to be any attack, it is still uncomfortable to be in that situation.

And in terms of womens rights reclaiming words has no particular impact I am afraid, or not on the ones I am interested in, women in prison, rate of sexual violence, rates of prosecution etc so am very happy for people to do that but it's not a focus for me.

Smileless2012

Sorry Doodledog can't help you out with that but did want to say that your post @ 07.30 is excellent.

As you say, the reclaiming of trans slurs would lessen their impact and children, adults too I guess, will find something else to take their place.

That doesn't mean that there wont be anyone who doesn't continue to be offended. Re claiming the 'c' word hasn't stopped everyone from finding it offensive. One of our lovely girls, our next door neighbours uses it, I've asked her not to because I find it offensive, so if she occasionally lets the word slip, she apologises.

We have a live thread on here about a family who is on the verge of estrangement because someone used the word, and lots of posters are in support of that, so clearly it is still considered very offensive.

What stands out for me in your post, VS is this:
And young minds influenced towards more narrow views where individuality is being suppressed and something like gender norms actually being reinforced and the world becoming more sexist. What will society turn on next? Will it be religion or could women end up losing our right to choose what happens with our own bodies as we have seen in the US?

It is ironic, as this is exactly what gender critical people are concerned about. If people who have individual views and resist narrow gender norms they are told that they are 'in the wrong body' and should transition.

To me, this will make the world more sexist, as women's roles will be circumscribed, and we don't know who will be 'turned on next'. Women are losing the right to choose what happens to their own bodies, as we now could be intimately examined by a man who says he's a woman, or have a man who says he's a woman watching us undress at a pool, meaning that we lose our rights to decide who touches us intimately or who sees us naked.

Mollygo

VioletSky

Sorry Mollygo

But even were the child trans, they were in a seperate private cubicle and no concern to anyone else.
Exactly my point! No concern to anyone else. Private changing rooms are exactly that.

But you didn’t say the bangs on the door were because she was using a private cubicle, you said she was accused of having a penis.
*Now why would that be do you think?*

Because of transphobia Mollygo

Which is what's just been said about trans reclaiming trans slurs.

www.theguardian.com/media/mind-your-language/2015/oct/30/power-grab-reclaiming-words-can-be-such-a-bitch

2 points on reclaiming a word

Using it as an insult is not reclaiming it

Reclaiming a word is taking its power away and that must be done by the marginalised group oppressed by it