Transphobic Bullying

FarNorth

VioletSky you said this -
the logical conclusion from the information available so far, is that trans women are women.

I'd be very interested to know how you came to this conclusion and how the information available helped you to do so in a logical way.

For instance, what seems to me to be the logical conclusion is that transwomen are men because they were born male and continue to be male regardless of hormones they may take or surgery they may have.

So, how did you reach your conclusion.

I'm sitting in the sun feeling really very peaceful

If I want to come back to this I will let you know

But for now, I need to get off the merry-go-round

It’s just a way of trying to deflect from the verifiable fact that the trans agenda has resulted in many cases of harm to women.

Yes, and it's a way of calling other posters prejudiced and discriminatory without actually saying it.

Any chance that you can clarify what you said earlier, Glorianna?
For reference:
I do wonder though if the incidence of trans people is as low as Doodledog asserted when trying to say education about trans issues wasn't essential how on earth can the position of women be threatened by them?

Where was I 'trying to say' that, please?

VioletSky you said this -
the logical conclusion from the information available so far, is that trans women are women.

I'd be very interested to know how you came to this conclusion and how the information available helped you to do so in a logical way.

For instance, what seems to me to be the logical conclusion is that transwomen are men because they were born male and continue to be male regardless of hormones they may take or surgery they may have.

So, how did you reach your conclusion.

Glorianny

Rosie51

Glorianny

Galaxy

They are currently fighting to retain single sex provision.

I don't think this is under threat. I agree it hasn't been properly administered in the past, but I don't think this is the fault of transpeople. It's a bit like blaming all drivers because some idiots ignore speed limits. The law is there and most respect it. If someone advocates no speed limits are all drivers complicit?

Well it is the fault of those transpeople that have gone into the single sex spaces. Those ones that haven't cared that women have absented themselves from groups and activities because, for whatever reason, they needed them to be truly single sex. Just because those in charge of administering the single sex space haven't fulfilled their obligation doesn't excuse anybody from failing to keep the rules. If I leave a window open when I go out, it will invalidate my insurance but doesn't excuse the burglar who enters and steals my property.

So you are in fact saying all are responsible for the actions of a few.
By that judgement
All men are paedophiles because a few are
All men are rapists because a few are
All drivers break speed limits because a few do
All women are child murderers because a few are.
It's obviously all nonsense
Are there a few transactivists who behave badly? Undoubtedly. Is that a reason to condemn them all or to be afraid of them all, or to post awful things about them. Of course it isn't.
It's as illogical as any of the above statements.
But then most prejudice and discrimination is.

I haven’t said anything remotely like that as anybody can see. It’s just a way of trying to deflect from the verifiable fact that the trans agenda has resulted in many cases of harm to women.

The numbers are irrelevant. The fact that it has happened should be enough to make any reasonable person take action to prevent such harm.

Mollygo

tri Glorianny

The only trans people I have met have been friendly, kind and inclusive.

Oh bother, I missed the excitement of this oft quoted phrase and the extra information about the non binary etc. .
Rosie asked a very good question re that but I feel it warrants repeating.

How on earth did you know they were trans? Did you judge them by their appearance? Did they tell you their preferred pronouns on being introduced, or do you have built in trans-radar?
Trans or not, why wouldn’t they be welcoming to your group of women.

And then the follow up oft quoted point,

I have met some pretty awful people of both sexes over the years.

Who hasn’t? Are you using that as a reason to excuse the actions of the few trans who are “pretty awful” whatever you mean by that?

As far as I am aware, no one on GN has said that all trans exhibit the bad behaviour perpetrated by some transwomen- so please point out where this has happened.

In one form or another, you have been on GN long enough to know that I don’t blame, or oppose or feel threatened by all trans, only by those who claim transwoman status and use it in order to harm females.

That particular group of TAF together with the actions of TRA, also harm the image of transwomen of the “friendly, kind and inclusive” sort you mention in your post but they evidently don’t care about that.

Incidentally please could you clarify, maybe give examples showing in what way these trans were inclusive.

Rosie51

Glorianny

Galaxy

They are currently fighting to retain single sex provision.

I don't think this is under threat. I agree it hasn't been properly administered in the past, but I don't think this is the fault of transpeople. It's a bit like blaming all drivers because some idiots ignore speed limits. The law is there and most respect it. If someone advocates no speed limits are all drivers complicit?

Well it is the fault of those transpeople that have gone into the single sex spaces. Those ones that haven't cared that women have absented themselves from groups and activities because, for whatever reason, they needed them to be truly single sex. Just because those in charge of administering the single sex space haven't fulfilled their obligation doesn't excuse anybody from failing to keep the rules. If I leave a window open when I go out, it will invalidate my insurance but doesn't excuse the burglar who enters and steals my property.

So you are in fact saying all are responsible for the actions of a few.
By that judgement
All men are paedophiles because a few are
All men are rapists because a few are
All drivers break speed limits because a few do
All women are child murderers because a few are.
It's obviously all nonsense
Are there a few transactivists who behave badly? Undoubtedly. Is that a reason to condemn them all or to be afraid of them all, or to post awful things about them. Of course it isn't.
It's as illogical as any of the above statements.
But then most prejudice and discrimination is.

Well, all I know is, if I can help it, I will never join one of these threads again

As an aside

I dunno what's up with gransnet lately, too many dark threads, even ones that come from positive places

I think that if you met me in real life, you might look at me rather differently than an online perception or one coloured by other people's perceptions So much more is said with expression and tone that's missing in type.

I think that this is very true, and is a disadvantage of social media like GN. Online communication has lots of good points, such as 'meeting' people you wouldn't normally meet, but it does lack expression and tone.

I think you are assuming that I don't know any transpeople, though - that isn't true . I don't see 'them' as monsters, or even as a homogenous group - I just don't see transpeople as the opposite sex from the one they were born.

I think the fact that I've sat here and tried to think of something to say and come up with nothing... is just... that

I think that if you met me in real life, you might look at me rather differently than an online perception or one coloured by other people's perceptions

So much more is said with expression and tone that's missing in type.

Like, the same can be said of trans people

If you aren't in circles where you know them, it's important not to run the risk of creating a monster only you can see coloured by headlines and social media and others perceptions.

I don't have anything against you doodledog I think you believe you are right and it matters

So I will keep trying to explain myself and build bridges

Soaybe I am on the bridge, not the fence, if that helps

Sorry - I never know whether to quote every post, as I know it irritates people, but when I don't my posts are always out of synch with the thread. The above was to VS

I'm a bit lost now. Are you saying that you are neutral in your views on trans issues, or that your 'how to win the argument' points erm, help you to win an argument?

They are very different things.

As I've said, I don't see your posts as remotely neutral - maybe my reality and your perception are different?

I'm not sure that the list makes a lot of sense, either. When people on both sides of an argument feel that people are making assumptions etc etc, then who 'wins'? Doesn't the actual argument count at all? Could someone make a lot of nonsensical posts but 'win' if the 'opponent' broke all of your 'rules'?

Glorianny

Galaxy

I am not blaming transpeople, I am just explaining what the feminists are doing. Oh and crowdfunding for the whistleblowers that takes a bit of time too.

But they are doing it by harming other people. Now you can believe someone who is trans remains their birth sex, but what possible harm can it do to refer to them by their chosen name and pronoun.
I worked in quite a few Catholic schools, when the children said prayers I bowed my head with them. I don't believe in God but the school ethos and the children's religion required I conform so I did. I could I suppose have refused to join in but what good would that have done?

I too have observed religious traditions that have no meaning for me, to show respect for others beliefs. It did me no harm.

However, if I am expected to respect a religious requirement or belief that harms women, forced marriage, for example thenI will protest loudly and forcibly.

There are now numerous examples of cases where the trans agenda has operated to the harm of women. So I don’t think your analogy holds any weight.

I'm not bothered by it

Just think people lose the argument

That goes a long way towards the topic of this thread though doesn't it?

What happens in the wider media aren't healthy lessons for children to learn

Glorianny

Galaxy

I am not blaming transpeople, I am just explaining what the feminists are doing. Oh and crowdfunding for the whistleblowers that takes a bit of time too.

But they are doing it by harming other people. Now you can believe someone who is trans remains their birth sex, but what possible harm can it do to refer to them by their chosen name and pronoun.
I worked in quite a few Catholic schools, when the children said prayers I bowed my head with them. I don't believe in God but the school ethos and the children's religion required I conform so I did. I could I suppose have refused to join in but what good would that have done?

The trans pople may not believe that they although they can live as anything they wish, they have not magically become women by self-identifying themselves as such, but when they are with people whose ethos and religion (or other logic) are that the physical sexes are not interchangeable, they could accept that they are not going to be referred to as the opposite sex. They could refuse to join in with whatever activity was going on, but what good would it do?

Quite. ?

I don’t think it’s possible to be on the fence when it comes to males having access to female safe spaces. Either you have them there or you don’t.

Either you think it’s acceptable for males to use their biological strength in female sports or you don’t.

Either you believe it’s biologically possible to change sex or you don’t .

There are some things where fence sitting just isn’t possible.

VioletSky

Why do I see myself as on the fence?

Because I am very aware that when you:

Make assumptions

Try to tell people what they think or mean and don't accept explanation

Deny what you have said previously

Make things personal

Demand answers to questions in a harassing way

Otherwise can't have a polite discussion

*You have already lost the argument*

Well, I haven't seen that, but you may be right.

However, what you feel about how you feel you're treated is not part of it.

"Sitting on the fence" is about the debate."

Not about those debating it.

(For what it's worth, my condition also gives me tremors at times, which can make posting difficult. Along with Apple's crazy predictive text, it can be a nightmare.?

I put the comment into a word document, to read it, and correct it, and then post. Long experience has shown me that's the best way.?).

That was all before my time, VS.

I can also 'see both sides'. It's not difficult to understand where others are coming from. I don't think that's the same as being 'on the fence' though, as that implies neutrality, and I don't see much of that on these threads. As has been said, though, it's not the sort of thing that it is possible to feel neutral about, so I don't see that as a bad thing.

As for the list of 'how to win an argument' points - yes, they all make sense to me, but I don't know how they apply to this thread (or any other, really). I know that I have felt on the wrong side of every single one of them, and am sure that others feel likewise.

Sorry for the errors, I have a medical condition that makes me shake at times

From on the fence, Ian i can see both sides

People managed to get me suspended from grnsnet before, because I allowed myself to be pulled down to their level when I was very outnumbered and they changed the narrative. Bring in mind I was quite ill at the time.

So I just have my own set of rules I follow now I guess

Those are all very vague assertions though, VS, and frankly sound like one of those pink FB memes?. How to they relate to this thread, or even general views on trans issues, and how do they make you or your posts any different from anyone else?

Also, none of them is about ‘being on the fence’, which is generally taken to mean someone who has no strong opinions one way or the other.

Why do I see myself as on the fence?

Because I am very aware that when you:

Make assumptions

Try to tell people what they think or mean and don't accept explanation

Deny what you have said previously

Make things personal

Demand answers to questions in a harassing way

Otherwise can't have a polite discussion

You have already lost the argument

To be fair I blame those doctors who did the whole 'live like a woman' thing without thinking for even one second what impact that might have. It was a requirement, and is to do with people not giving women one second thought, seeing women as an irrelevancy really.
Its been quite startling to watch men do it.

Glorianny

Galaxy

They are currently fighting to retain single sex provision.

I don't think this is under threat. I agree it hasn't been properly administered in the past, but I don't think this is the fault of transpeople. It's a bit like blaming all drivers because some idiots ignore speed limits. The law is there and most respect it. If someone advocates no speed limits are all drivers complicit?

Well it is the fault of those transpeople that have gone into the single sex spaces. Those ones that haven't cared that women have absented themselves from groups and activities because, for whatever reason, they needed them to be truly single sex. Just because those in charge of administering the single sex space haven't fulfilled their obligation doesn't excuse anybody from failing to keep the rules. If I leave a window open when I go out, it will invalidate my insurance but doesn't excuse the burglar who enters and steals my property.

I dont believe in God either, the school I was governor to made sure we knew we could opt out of prayers.