Mikhail Gorbachev

M0nica Thu 01-Sep-22 07:18:01
The fashion of obituaries being a a paeon of praise for a person, remembering only the good and failing to mention their heinous crimes or other worst attributes, has long gone

Really?.

grannydarkhair

No state funeral, but thousands of Moscovites have queued to see him lying in state.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62776796

I saw that on the news as well.
I thought how brave they were in a country where there are cameras everywhere. The chap who spoke out in favour of Gorbachov was so moving. many who admired him dare not so so . Maybe he was a strong member of the party before he became leader whose to say he did not tow the party line to get where he wanted and then bring about reforms?
Lots of countries owe their independence to him and how sad only the Hungarian leader dared to turn up to show his respects.

No state funeral, but thousands of Moscovites have queued to see him lying in state.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62776796

I recall that he was like a breath of fresh air after the presidents before him who seemed less than human, so stiff and uptight.

I wonder what demographic of Russians is nationalist today.

Don't put it in N &P, then

It didn't seem appropriate to put it in chat.

Callistemon21

Mikhail Gorbachev died yesterday at the age of 91.

I'm surprised that a thread has not been started already but here goes.

Mikhail Gorbachev was a reformer, an advocate for peace, however, that meant that he was not as popular in his home country as he was in much of the rest of the world.

He brought the Cold War to a peaceful end, removing the threat that many of us lived under in our youth.

His intention was not to bring about the end of the Soviet Union but his reforms did bring about freedom for so many countries who had lived under Soviet rule. That has been called a great catastrophe by the present President.

I remember the feelings of optimism for a better future during the years he was in power.

Those days are a distant memory and the future seems more uncertain now.

RIP Mikhail Gorbachev

Indeed.

RIP Mikhail Gorbachov. A man who believed in peace and diplomacy, not war, and a country's right to self-determination.

Callistemon21

Would you like to start another thread, a discussion thread perhaps?
This isn't really it.

It always seems rather unseemly when someone hijacks an in memoriam thread with unpleasant anecdotes.

Don't put it in N &P, then.

Perhaps we really should lobby Gnet for a Memoriam forum. Then it would be absolutely clear that whitewash is the order of the day.

M0nica

The fashion of obituaries being a a paeon of praise for a person, remembering only the good and failing to mention their heinous crimes or other worst attributes, has long gone.

An obituary should, as far as possible, be a balanced summary of someone's life, good and bad.

Mikhail Goorbachev, was a remarkable man and clearly, in the personal sphere, a loving and kind man, but to rise to the position he did he had for many decades to be part of the Soviet system, and accept and implement government policy, which he seemed to do with equinimity.

The west thinks he is wonderful because, so to speak, he caved in to them and deserted to the western side, but to the Russians he destroyed their empire and sold out to the west.

Some of this is unfair, the Soviet Union was on the verge of collapse and would have toppled anyway, and certainly its eastern European satellite countries were on the move westwards, whatever the Russians did.

But to write about Gorbachev, without representing him warts and all is unfair to Gorbchev and unfair to all those people who suffered in pre Perestroika days wen he was part of the ruling nomenklatura.

Thank you, MOnica.

He was the first in a long while to actually communicate with the West and he was more of a peacemaker than his predecessors. No, he wasn’t perfect but then, who is? Certainly not someone like Churchill who was great during the Second World War but not in the first war and not after WW11.

The fashion of obituaries being a a paeon of praise for a person, remembering only the good and failing to mention their heinous crimes or other worst attributes, has long gone.

An obituary should, as far as possible, be a balanced summary of someone's life, good and bad.

Mikhail Goorbachev, was a remarkable man and clearly, in the personal sphere, a loving and kind man, but to rise to the position he did he had for many decades to be part of the Soviet system, and accept and implement government policy, which he seemed to do with equinimity.

The west thinks he is wonderful because, so to speak, he caved in to them and deserted to the western side, but to the Russians he destroyed their empire and sold out to the west.

Some of this is unfair, the Soviet Union was on the verge of collapse and would have toppled anyway, and certainly its eastern European satellite countries were on the move westwards, whatever the Russians did.

But to write about Gorbachev, without representing him warts and all is unfair to Gorbchev and unfair to all those people who suffered in pre Perestroika days wen he was part of the ruling nomenklatura.

I think Margaret Thatcher said “We can do business with him”.

A big step forward at the time.

Now look how it all is.

Would you like to start another thread, a discussion thread perhaps?
This isn't really it.

It always seems rather unseemly when someone hijacks an in memoriam thread with unpleasant anecdotes.

Callistemon21

As we were saying

The feeling of optimism was such a relief after years of anxiety during the Cold War

^Gorbachev refused to sanction the use of force to put down demonstrations. By November, 1989 the Berlin Wall had fallen.
Who can forget that momentous event?

RIP Mikhail Gorbachev

Blimey

Let's just ignore the possibility that he wasn't a saint, shall we?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62736373

The Kremlin has no plans to afford this former Soviet premier a State funeral. He was always more popular abroad than ‘at home’.
RIP Mikhail Gorbachev. A visionary in his time.

I can see why the Russians are less than enthusiastic. Glasnost and perestroika were great from the point of view of the west but to Russians. They once had a great empire that stretched from the Baltic to the Pacific, they were surrounded by a bevy of client states that jumped to their bidding,

Now that bevy of states has broken away and joined the west and Russia has had also to retreat from all the territory it gradually took over and incorporated into Greater Russia in the 19th and 20th century. Putins 'special military operation is the start of an attempt to rebuild Greater Russia, no wonder no one thinks much of him in Russia.

His other weakness is that he never felt equal to breaking down and disbanding the KGB. Putin is ex-KGB and the KGB effectively run the country.it is a criminal and corrupt organisation and is responsible for Russia becoming like the Mafia with rewards going to those who work with the KGB. Almost all the Russian oligarchs have KGB fraternisationnin their background.

A brave man, a nice man, but lacking the strip of brutality that has always run through successful leaders in Russia and seens to be beceessary, whether thtat leader be Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Staalin or Putin.

He was indeed a great man. Growing up with the threat of nuclear war I remember the concern the West faced.

He was a great man who did the impossible.

RIP

As we were saying

The feeling of optimism was such a relief after years of anxiety during the Cold War

^Gorbachev refused to sanction the use of force to put down demonstrations. By November, 1989 the Berlin Wall had fallen.
Who can forget that momentous event?

RIP Mikhail Gorbachev

I don't think that any of you can have seen any reference to his quelling 'rebellions in Lithuania, then? Where he set the army on them and people were shot and run over by tanks?
Not an altogether pleasant man...

mobile.twitter.com/SamRamani2/status/1564904340749434881

I too remember feeling so optimistic and thought of him as a decent man not something you can say about many political leaders

A good man indeed. He must have been appalled by the behaviour of Putin and his henchmen.
RIP Mikhail Gorbachev

Mikhail Gorbachev brought hope to Europe.

RIP

He did so much for his country. It must have been heartbreaking for him to see Putin undo all his good work.

RIP]flowers].

Yes, he brought so much optimism and seems to have been a rare leader in that he kept his integrity intact.
It is sad that his funeral is unlikely to be attended by all the world leaders.
RIP Mikhail Gorbachev