Mermaids - helping children & teenagers to deceive their parents

I completely fail to see how closing down or restricting the advice or help an organisation like Mermaids can give will help or make better the life of any child questioning their gender whist the gender service being offered is so inadequate. All that would do would be to drive them to more dodgy on-line help. Until a proper gender service for children is established Mermaids provides some children with help.

Glorianny: No it points out the discrepancies in considering children unable to decide on one matter, but considering them competent on another, an example where a parent is not considered the best person to decide a child's treatment, something many on these threads insist is paramount, and the lack of proper treatment for a group of children who need help.
Mermaids simply fill a gap which has been left. If the gap wasn't there they wouldn't exist. Right or wrong isn't actually of prime importance.

You are not comparing like with like. Children who are sexually active (not ideal, but it happens) are safer if they are protected from pregnancy, and when speaking to a sexual health professional can also learn about how to protect themselves from STIs and potentially about how to escape from exploitative situations. The point is that as well as the contraception there is communication.

Children who are confused about so-called 'gender' issues are given none of this. They may well agree to the guidelines, but as minors they are not legally able to do so.

Also, it is you who is considering children competent in one area, equating it with another, and then extrapolating from that that so are others. Who has said that they approve of children being given contraceptives? Or are you leaping to your own conclusions there? Some posters may be in favour, some may not, others will feel that the situation is nuanced.

Nobody has argued that there should not be unbiased medical/psychological help available to confused children, but to say that because there isn't, it is ok for places like Mermaids to act on their own volition is, to take another two random things and create a spurious link, like saying that because there is not enough help for mental health issues, mind-altering drugs should be available online and distributed by lottery-funded organisations who claim good intentions and that they are simply 'plugging a gap'.

Right or wrong is of prime importance - I beg to differ.

Glorianny
Right or wrong isn't actually of prime importance.
I find it difficult that anyone believes that statement, in whatever situation it is used but if it fits your moral compass, so be it.

Great post Doodledog
Preventing sexually active children from the added trauma of potentially deciding on an abortion or continuing a pregnancy to term is quite different from giving a child a harmful device or directing them to where they can obtain off-licence powerful drugs.
As I recall many people, (and I was one of them), said when the whole Shamima Begum affair broke that she was a child aged 15 when she made the decision to join Isis and wasn't mature enough to make the decision. We used this thought to justify why she should be returned to the UK.
Scottish law acknowledges that the brain does not reach full maturity until 25, and therefore sentencing guidelines for under 25s should reflect this truth, with a custodial sentence being the last resort.
Mermaids thinks a child of 4 or 5 'knows' they should be the other sex, and girls as young as 13 are informed enough to bind their breasts and take puberty blockers. And nobody should be concerned or question. Glorianny appears to endorse that bad treatment that could cause irreversible damage is preferable to no treatment.
I agree with Doodledog and Mollygo right or wrong is of prime importance, and I question the moral compass of those that promote another agenda.

Mermaids is among those who create the problem, in the first place, by persuading children & adults that being 'in the wrong body' and 'changing sex' are real things.

No medication or device can change a person's sex.

Daddima, I too have worked with children all my life and have never 'seen' a transgender child , that doesn't mean they were not there ! My views are most certainly not a result of wanting to be in touch with young people - my thoughts spring from personal experience and take it from me it is very real and very distressing for the parents and wider family to accept - but accept they have.
I agree Mermaids have a responsibility and should not be supplying breast binders and telling young girls not to tell their parents. I also recognize that young people are not fully mature until they are about 25years of age. I also recognize many teenagers are confused and have other emotional issues that need addressing . Nothing should ever be done until in depth assessments have been made - I get that. I just distresses me when I read posts from people who appear to just dismiss the reality of transgender children. I know people can not change their biological gender but gender identity is far more complicated than the physical body. It's not a matter of ' changing sex' it is a matter of identity. If their brain tells them them they are other than the gender assigned at birth then that must be respected. It is a very distressing for teenagers and their families to deal with - but believe me it is very real indeed!!!

Far North , please stop and think about what you are saying. I only hope for the sake of any young people in your life that they are not transgender. Your attitude would not be one iota of support for them , if you have not experienced this issue in your nearest and dearest then lucky you! and very lucky teenagers that they won't have to struggle with their identity in addition to having to come to terms with your inability to understand and accept . Our family has had to do that and it has not been easy!!!!!! Stop , think and put yourself in the shoes of a very ordinary family who have pulled together to ensure the teenager in question is secure in their family ' s love which has enabled one much loved teenager to grow into a wonderful , honest , hard working adult. Without the love and support of parents and extended family I dread to think what the outcome might have been. I am not often so outspoken but as you may have gathered my feelings are very highly charged regarding this issue. Of course you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that but I ask you to just stop for a few minutes and ask yourself ' what would I do if I was presented with a teenager who said he / she was transgender. They would need your love and support whether it was true or not - surely you could do that?

Love and accept the adult for who they are

Love and protect the child until they are of age.

It's possible to love and support someone without believing what they believe. I am an atheist I can love and support people who have a religious belief without actually believing in God. I believe that gender is oppressive and damaging to both men and women, and my beliefs are protected by law.

Shelflife wrote I ask you to just stop for a few minutes and ask yourself ' what would I do if I was presented with a teenager who said he / she was transgender. They would need your love and support whether it was true or not - surely you could do that?

Yes, of course I could do that but it wouldn't take the form of immediately accepting that the person is trans and needs to be accepted as the opposite sex, by all.

Mermaids' policy is that a child's/ young person's statement of trans identity should immediately be accepted and changes to their body should be enabled - with no need for counseling to help the person explore the background to their feelings.

In addition, training given by Mermaids and Stonewall has led to a huge emphasis on gender identity in schools. This influences children who otherwise would have had no thoughts of such a thing.

Do you really believe there have always been similar levels of trans children and young people, as we now hear about, who just weren't known?

Mermaids has become perceived, along with Stonewall, as an authority on gender identity yet both of them are harming children and young people, in my view .

When somebody has a disparity between what their body is and what their mind is telling them, why is it that all the focus of Stonewall and Mermaids is on changing the body?

I get you! and fully understand your concerns. I didn't say there have always been similar levels of trans children. I said there has always been been trans children .
I recognize that Mermaids are putting pressure on young minds and know that is very wrong just as websites that encourage young people to commit suicide are ! My feelings spring from the notion that so many people just do not believe the trans situation exists and I know that is incorrect! I recognize how sensitive I am about this , I am fully aware of the rapid increase in children seeking help and of course I wonder why ? and how much is down
to indue pressure- I recognize the danger there. I am backing away from this thread now and as I am becoming too involved!! It's a sunny day and I am off for a walk to clear my head !

Reposting the screenshot of what used to be Mermaids' attitude to gender dysphoric children. The highlighted section clearly states only a small proportion of cases will result in a transsexual outcome
Would anyone argue that this is at total variance with their attitude today...........immediate affirmation and even provision of binders in secret from parents? It's become, like Stonewall, a gravy train intent on its own survival. Part of their argument for attempting to get the Charity Commission to remove LGB Alliance's charitable status was because they feared a reduction in donations to themselves. That vindictive act may yet come back to bite them.

Lathyrus
That’s good.

Doodledog

^Glorianny^: No it points out the discrepancies in considering children unable to decide on one matter, but considering them competent on another, an example where a parent is not considered the best person to decide a child's treatment, something many on these threads insist is paramount, and the lack of proper treatment for a group of children who need help.
Mermaids simply fill a gap which has been left. If the gap wasn't there they wouldn't exist. Right or wrong isn't actually of prime importance.

You are not comparing like with like. Children who are sexually active (not ideal, but it happens) are safer if they are protected from pregnancy, and when speaking to a sexual health professional can also learn about how to protect themselves from STIs and potentially about how to escape from exploitative situations. The point is that as well as the contraception there is communication.

Children who are confused about so-called 'gender' issues are given none of this. They may well agree to the guidelines, but as minors they are not legally able to do so.

Also, it is you who is considering children competent in one area, equating it with another, and then extrapolating from that that so are others. Who has said that they approve of children being given contraceptives? Or are you leaping to your own conclusions there? Some posters may be in favour, some may not, others will feel that the situation is nuanced.

Nobody has argued that there should not be unbiased medical/psychological help available to confused children, but to say that because there isn't, it is ok for places like Mermaids to act on their own volition is, to take another two random things and create a spurious link, like saying that because there is not enough help for mental health issues, mind-altering drugs should be available online and distributed by lottery-funded organisations who claim good intentions and that they are simply 'plugging a gap'.

Right or wrong is of prime importance - I beg to differ.

I am actually comparing like with like. That is the ability of teenage children to access and receive medical advice without the consent or knowledge of their parents. However the anti-trans body of posters persist in considering trans as something different. It isn't, it is one of the problems which may present in the teenagers years, and which some teens may be completely supported through by their families, but which many may not. All children are better served if they are given proper medical support and counselling for their problems. Unfortunately for trans children there is little or no support. As I said Mermaids only exists because of this. That anyone would seek to shut down something and leave children exposed to just seeking on-line support, from disreputable suppliers who don't impose any restrictions, provide no guidelines, and are only interested in supplying products and drugs purely for profit, I find totally incomprehensible. I can only hope that the condemnation comes from a lack of real knowledge about the dangers out there. But whatever the reason completely condemning Mermaids, whilst failing to supply a proper gender support service, could only result in more harm to children, not less.
Right or wrong isn't of prime importance because it is better to have some support which may help some children to deal with their fears and problems, than to have nothing at all, which leaves them vulnerable and liable to undertake more risky procedures. Try reading about what trans children have done. Binding with gaffer tape and sharing drugs are just two of the less risky behaviours that they take up.

Shelflife

I get you! and fully understand your concerns. I didn't say there have always been similar levels of trans children. I said there has always been been trans children .
I recognize that Mermaids are putting pressure on young minds and know that is very wrong just as websites that encourage young people to commit suicide are ! My feelings spring from the notion that so many people just do not believe the trans situation exists and I know that is incorrect! I recognize how sensitive I am about this , I am fully aware of the rapid increase in children seeking help and of course I wonder why ? and how much is down
to indue pressure- I recognize the danger there. I am backing away from this thread now and as I am becoming too involved!! It's a sunny day and I am off for a walk to clear my head !

Why do you think that so many people don't believe that 'the trans situation' exists'? I don't think that that is true at all.

I think that it would be impossible not to know that it exists. People do, but it is the things you have mentioned, such as undue pressure, the rapid increase in numbers etc that people are worried about.

I have every sympathy with families who have this going on with loved ones. It's just that I don't think that organisations such as Mermaids help people in that situation at all.

Glorianny I believe that the hugely increased proportion of children and young people who say they are trans, whether they genuinely believe it or not, has been brought about in large part by the determined work of Stonewall and Mermaids to have 'trans' be a major focus for everyone, especially schools.

Your view seems to be that every child and young person who claims a trans identity is a tortured soul whose every wish should be met. I don't agree with that .

Glorianny, I do wish you would stop insisting that anyone who disagrees with you is 'anti-trans' and wanting to 'shut things down'.

It doesn't help debate when you go on the attack like this, and when people become defensive in response any discussion becomes a quarrel.

I think the idea that two organisations can influence and change the views of generations of teens is actually equivalent to conspiracy theories and might also be compared to the clause 28 issue, when some people imagined that teaching children about gay relations ships would turn them all into homosexuals. It didn't. Neither will Stonewall and/or Mermaids. Of course more teens will experiment, which is why proper gender clinics and counselling are so needed, but blaming it all on Stonewall is too much. It is part of the zeitgeist, just as a relaxation of sexual restrictions was part of the 60's.
It's quite simple Doodledog stop blaming Mermaids for providing a service that fills a gap and helps some children, accept some level of support is needed and this is better than nothing. Because nothing is what some children are getting. Or explain to me why it is better to close down Mermaids and leave all children with nothing. Because that I don't understand.

Accepting some level of support is needed is not the same as accepting that poor advice is offered. When poor advice is offered, offering nothing is a better option.

I'm not going to get involved in the discussion because it's the same one that we always have on here.

But just to say, Glorianny, that you are most definitely not the only one with those feelings or beliefs on here. Just that most of us aren't willing to debate the same points repeatedly.

GagaJo

I'm not going to get involved in the discussion because it's the same one that we always have on here.

But just to say, Glorianny, that you are most definitely not the only one with those feelings or beliefs on here. Just that most of us aren't willing to debate the same points repeatedly.

I think this one is interesting Gagajo because it pins people down to if their real intention is to stop any support for trans children. Which apparently Mollygo would do. I can only hope that she posts in absolute ignorance of the things children can and will access which are far more harmful than anything Mermaids is doing and which some children still resort to. Mermaids may not be perfect but there are much worse sources of "help" out there and unfortunately that seems to be what some would leave children to use.

The fact that they are registered as a charity means they have tax advantages.
This could be the way they receive "government funding"? The same way that Private Schools do.

I was really glad when Kids Company was shut down, this does not mean I dont care about children in poverty.
I would follow the guidance in the cass report about the support that should be offered. If Mermaids meets that guidance great.

Ooh, such presumption on your part tri. I know a lot about the lengths girls are prepared to go, but if the source of advice is wrong, it’s better to shut it down and provide something better. Mermaids is tainted by their previous wrong activities, some of which they are prepared to perpetuate evidently with your support.