Mermaids - helping children & teenagers to deceive their parents

The 'I was being sarcastic' excuse is yet more gaslighting, on the lines of 'take a joke'. That, and a way of wriggling when someone can't back up their claims.

I'm guessing we aren't going to be told how it is that Glorianny is so much better informed than we are about where children get puberty blockers and breast binders, and who shares their ill-gotten drugs with whom. It's a bit of a cheek to ask others for evidence without offering the same in return.

Glorianny

Rosie51

I'm sure Glorianny will share her research to educate us very soon. She surely wouldn't be making baseless claims?

But that couldn't possibly happen because children don't have the money to buy drugs do they? And there cant possibly be any problem with a drug and alcohol culture in under16s can there? oh there certainly is, were you unaware? I have a son in the police who is very au fait with those problems, and a daughter-in-law who worked with drug and alcohol abuse teens in the past. Alcohol and street drugs are cheaper and far more easily available than hormone blockers, the market for hormone blockers being an inherently smaller one. You don't get a high from lupron, and most blokes don't want to be chemically castrated by it. I could go to a local area and be certain of obtaining marijuana at the very least. I doubt any of those dealers would also be carrying lupron.

Real world, fantasy world...... who lives in a world like this? (said in my best Loyd Grossman drawl)

You don't really get sarcasm do you Rosie51?
To explain it simply if children can buy and use illegal substances (as you have explained so well) they could equally buy and use drugs necessary for transition and they are more likely to do so with no counselling available and no support, if they access those drugs through a dealer or on-line is really irrelevant..
There is also on line a lot of information about cheaper alternatives to puberty blockers and their usage, much of the information is from trans people who always state that a child should only use them under proper medical supervision but most kids would skip that bit.

Yes I do get sarcasm, you on the other hand don't get when it's batted back at you ???
Are you going to share your research with links or was that just a load of codswallop posturing as knowledge? Failure to produce just confirms suspicions that you're making it up as you go along.
You brought in the diversion of children obtaining alcohol and drugs. They don't obtain these online but from street dealers and dodgy shops for the alcohol. Not at all the same requirements as obtaining puberty blockers online. Try again, you can't equate them, then claim irrelevancy.

So the fact that there are people out there aiding and abetting self harm means that children should be directed to an organisation that encourages DIY self-harm?

Of course it would be much better if help were available on the NHS, but the fact that it isn't is not a green light for unqualified people to step in, any more than long waiting lists for CAHMS is good reason for drug dealers to peddle substances to make the pain go away.

Rosie51

I'm sure Glorianny will share her research to educate us very soon. She surely wouldn't be making baseless claims?

But that couldn't possibly happen because children don't have the money to buy drugs do they? And there cant possibly be any problem with a drug and alcohol culture in under16s can there? oh there certainly is, were you unaware? I have a son in the police who is very au fait with those problems, and a daughter-in-law who worked with drug and alcohol abuse teens in the past. Alcohol and street drugs are cheaper and far more easily available than hormone blockers, the market for hormone blockers being an inherently smaller one. You don't get a high from lupron, and most blokes don't want to be chemically castrated by it. I could go to a local area and be certain of obtaining marijuana at the very least. I doubt any of those dealers would also be carrying lupron.

Real world, fantasy world...... who lives in a world like this? (said in my best Loyd Grossman drawl)

You don't really get sarcasm do you Rosie51?
To explain it simply if children can buy and use illegal substances (as you have explained so well) they could equally buy and use drugs necessary for transition and they are more likely to do so with no counselling available and no support, if they access those drugs through a dealer or on-line is really irrelevant..
There is also on line a lot of information about cheaper alternatives to puberty blockers and their usage, much of the information is from trans people who always state that a child should only use them under proper medical supervision but most kids would skip that bit.

Sorry, on re-reading that is not clear - I meant share the source of her superior knowledge and expertise.

Well, if Glorianny has expertise in the world of illegal puberty blockers and breast binders, or is in a better position than the rest of us to understand how different groups of children access various sources of assistance, then it would be good if she shared this with us, even obliquely so as not to be outing. Otherwise it comes across as posturing, and the condescension that saturates her posts as false.

I'm sure Glorianny will share her research to educate us very soon. She surely wouldn't be making baseless claims?

But that couldn't possibly happen because children don't have the money to buy drugs do they? And there cant possibly be any problem with a drug and alcohol culture in under16s can there? oh there certainly is, were you unaware? I have a son in the police who is very au fait with those problems, and a daughter-in-law who worked with drug and alcohol abuse teens in the past. Alcohol and street drugs are cheaper and far more easily available than hormone blockers, the market for hormone blockers being an inherently smaller one. You don't get a high from lupron, and most blokes don't want to be chemically castrated by it. I could go to a local area and be certain of obtaining marijuana at the very least. I doubt any of those dealers would also be carrying lupron.

Real world, fantasy world...... who lives in a world like this? (said in my best Loyd Grossman drawl)

Why don’t you share your “research” so we can all see the source of your information and have your “knowledge “.

Rosie51

I love how Glorianny thinks affluent trans children mix with poor trans children regularly, and are so altruistic that they share their expensive puberty blockers on a regular basis. After all, if they aren't sharing regularly but just one here and there that's not going to work is it?

If you know or research how some trans young people obtain their drugs you will discover that a fair few of them share hormone treatments with others (even prescribed ones) It isn't difficult then to see that younger children will adopt the same processes. Of course there is always the possibility that the drugs will be sold on not shared. But that couldn't possibly happen because children don't have the money to buy drugs do they? And there cant possibly be any problem with a drug and alcohol culture in under16s can there? Because they simply can't afford it. I sometimes wonder what sort of world some GNers live in. It certainly isn't the real one.

I love how Glorianny thinks affluent trans children mix with poor trans children regularly, and are so altruistic that they share their expensive puberty blockers on a regular basis. After all, if they aren't sharing regularly but just one here and there that's not going to work is it?

Glorianny

Lathyrus

Well now. Out of curiosity I googled “puberty blockers”. Those things that are supposedly so easy for children to buy on-line.

Here’s one.

You will need £195 set up fee.
Information gathering session (compulsory) £65
Hormones from £10 per month
Anti-androgens from £10 per month
Puberty blocking injections £100 a month

That’s a Uk site

Looking at less reputable sites.

A packet of “puberty blocking pills’ available for around £80 a month.

Any child buying them will need access to an adults credit card.

Now, I’ve no doubt that some 12 year olds from affluent homes can manage this. But easily available?

Affluent children buy and share with others. And foreign websites supply much cheaper drugs -of course they might not be what is claimed.

Evidence, just like you demanded from me?

You still need a credit card to buy. So an adult must be providing that. The purchases would show up on the adults statement.

The £80 was a foreign website and the cheapest.

A child with a credit card might hand over a couple of pills but I doubt they’d fund anything more than that for a mate

I simply don’t believe your “easily available” for young teens. I don’t believe you could provide any evidence for that.

I believe it’s a false claim to attempt justify actions that harm children.

“I only do this to them to them show how much I care.”

And Mermaids are pushing trans and advocating puberty blockers - whether they know where children will get them or not?
Oh well I suppose you’re happy with that. I’m not.

Lathyrus

Well now. Out of curiosity I googled “puberty blockers”. Those things that are supposedly so easy for children to buy on-line.

Here’s one.

You will need £195 set up fee.
Information gathering session (compulsory) £65
Hormones from £10 per month
Anti-androgens from £10 per month
Puberty blocking injections £100 a month

That’s a Uk site

Looking at less reputable sites.

A packet of “puberty blocking pills’ available for around £80 a month.

Any child buying them will need access to an adults credit card.

Now, I’ve no doubt that some 12 year olds from affluent homes can manage this. But easily available?

Affluent children buy and share with others. And foreign websites supply much cheaper drugs -of course they might not be what is claimed.

Then stop criticising an organisation which is at least trying to help and either campaign for proper services or shut up because the only things available to children seeking some sort of support if Mermaids goes are commercial organisations or unregulated websites which will advocate far worse processes and which will be used by children desperate to find some level of support.

So that's the deal is it? Stop criticising an organisation you support, or you will continue to generalise and jump to conclusions. Oh, or I can 'shut up'? Nice. Well, this is exactly what I have been saying goes on on these threads for what feels like eternity, and you have finally admitted it.

If you think providing a binder after giving information and asking for an assurance is bad, how about buying puberty blockers on line, and then sharing them around which does happen, and with no support at all will happen more and more.
Whataboutery adds nothing to the debate, really. You may not feel that it matters whether it is right or wrong, but many people do, and the fact that other dubious options are available doesn't make this one right. When an organisation gets funding from the Lottery, which is sanctioned by the government, it has to work to higher standards than probably illegal sites selling puberty blockers. Are these outlets overseen by a qualified doctor? If not, then the really should be reported, as selling drugs without prescription is against the law. I don't know, but I would have thought that selling them to minors is taken very seriously.

What did come to the top of every page I looked at were Law Firms from different parts of the world offering to undertake litigation on behalf of those who had been persuaded to take puberty blockers, when underage or without full knowledge of the consequences.

Lawyers go where the money is so there’s obviously a demand for their services.

Doesn’t that tell you something?

Well now. Out of curiosity I googled “puberty blockers”. Those things that are supposedly so easy for children to buy on-line.

Here’s one.

You will need £195 set up fee.
Information gathering session (compulsory) £65
Hormones from £10 per month
Anti-androgens from £10 per month
Puberty blocking injections £100 a month

That’s a Uk site

Looking at less reputable sites.

A packet of “puberty blocking pills’ available for around £80 a month.

Any child buying them will need access to an adults credit card.

Now, I’ve no doubt that some 12 year olds from affluent homes can manage this. But easily available?

Rosie51

Glorianny or shut up how rude! If you think providing a binder after giving information and asking for an assurance is bad, how about buying puberty blockers on line, and then sharing them around which does happen, and with no support at all will happen more and more. oh the irony! Are you really unaware that Mermaids advise parents to get private prescriptions for puberty blockers on the internet from abroad? Some pharmacists are refusing to fill these now because they are not UK based doctors issuing them, so lots of forum activity advising how to get round the problem. These children will not have been seen by a doctor or other medic to ascertain their suitability or need. But that's OK, a non-medical Mermaid employee can point them in the right direction. I think maybe we care a great deal more about these children that you are more than happy to sacrifice to an ideology.

So at least you and the parents know about it Rosie51 isn't that a good thing? I'm talking about largely untraceable and unregulated suppliers that children will find and will use if you close all other avenues to them. There seems to be some perception on these threads that accommodating a child's wishes is entirely wrong. I'd say it is a question of reducing any harm that might be done, and having open access to what is happening, through an organisation like Mermaids is better than driving everything underground. Of course proper gender counselling would be the best, but many parents are simply trying to do their best for their child with what is available. Chopping that support and leaving them without help seems a bit cruel, not to mention harmful, for all concerned.

Mmm. What kind of mentality defends harming a child by pointing out that there are other things that might harm them more. So really they are doing it because they care for them.

?

Glorianny or shut up how rude! If you think providing a binder after giving information and asking for an assurance is bad, how about buying puberty blockers on line, and then sharing them around which does happen, and with no support at all will happen more and more. oh the irony! Are you really unaware that Mermaids advise parents to get private prescriptions for puberty blockers on the internet from abroad? Some pharmacists are refusing to fill these now because they are not UK based doctors issuing them, so lots of forum activity advising how to get round the problem. These children will not have been seen by a doctor or other medic to ascertain their suitability or need. But that's OK, a non-medical Mermaid employee can point them in the right direction. I think maybe we care a great deal more about these children that you are more than happy to sacrifice to an ideology.

Doodledog

Glorianny

Lathyrus

Which is that children are being encouraged and assisted to self harm by Mermaids.

And people are supporting them to do this.

Self harm by other methods is of course freely available (and much more harmful). But who cares about that!!

Probably everyone posting on this thread cares about self-harm. The fact that someone might see transitioning as extreme self harm when it is carried out on those who are actually gay, or who suffer from MH disorders does not mean that they don't care about any and all 'other' cases.

Please stop generalising and jumping to conclusions about what other people think.

Then stop criticising an organisation which is at least trying to help and either campaign for proper services or shut up because the only things available to children seeking some sort of support if Mermaids goes are commercial organisations or unregulated websites which will advocate far worse processes and which will be used by children desperate to find some level of support. If you think providing a binder after giving information and asking for an assurance is bad, how about buying puberty blockers on line, and then sharing them around which does happen, and with no support at all will happen more and more.

Glorianny

Lathyrus

Which is that children are being encouraged and assisted to self harm by Mermaids.

And people are supporting them to do this.

Self harm by other methods is of course freely available (and much more harmful). But who cares about that!!

Probably everyone posting on this thread cares about self-harm. The fact that someone might see transitioning as extreme self harm when it is carried out on those who are actually gay, or who suffer from MH disorders does not mean that they don't care about any and all 'other' cases.

Please stop generalising and jumping to conclusions about what other people think.

Elegran

Here is another Google search results page. This one is on the subject Detransitioners Stories and is for those who know only of Keira Bell.
www.google.com/search?q=detransitioners+stories

Thanks for the links Elegran the most informative study on there indicates that just over 2% of children who transition detransition. Which means that either there are hundreds of thousands of transitioning children or the number of detransitioners is being vastly inflated. I wonder which it is?

Lathyrus

Which is that children are being encouraged and assisted to self harm by Mermaids.

And people are supporting them to do this.

Self harm by other methods is of course freely available (and much more harmful). But who cares about that!!

I dont think transition is 'wrong' as such. Why would I care (in adults). I am interested in the information from the cass report which is saying the profile of these young people is very complex and affirmation has no particular evidence base. Gillick competence is I hope not being applied to care/treatment which we are being advised is currently not proven to be the answer to the needs of this cohort.