Are young people turning gay?

But nobody is saying that transwomen are likely to masturbate on wards!!!!! How many times does it have to be said?

It is the fact that men are allowed there at all that is the issue, and that allowing the ones who say they are women means that there is no way to stop any of them.

Of course it is up to you whether or not you post on a thread, but this pattern is familiar too - start by refusing to answer questions, divert/do the dead cat thing, call people names then flounce, claiming some sort of moral high ground. It’s predictable and tedious.

Hmm this thread has disappeared from the Active Forums on my iPad.

I’ll answer my own question.

Only people who don’t want females to be safe.

?

Here’s a solution.

Transwomen allow females to have spaces where they feel safe.

Now who could argue against that?

The problem is that it is just as likely (in fact more). that the nice looking bloke in a suit is the one wanking in the ward than the rather odd looking person who may or may not be a transwoman. Because transpeople are so constantly examined and criticised they are much more liable to abide strictly to rules, whereas privileged, accepted and dominant men know they can get away with it. So actually yes some people are not caring or considerate, but you can't judge by appearances, and so many of these discussions are based purely around that.

Now I'm off this thread because I've realised some people just don't want solutions.

Btw my above comment meant even in the same room/if they were asleep - not blatant

It's actually classed as child abuse to masturbate in front of a child over a certain age, over 4 I think. Just shows how easy it is to enforce laws and boundaries on wards with minimal staff at night

Sorry - Not All Men Are Like That.

Cross posted, JJ. Yes, there was only a curtain in the maternity ward I'm talking about.

I don't think I could get any sleep with a masturbating man in the vicinity. And that is certainly not something a child should have to overhear. And before anyone jumps in, NAMALT etc etc. But one is enough, and most laws and rules are made to protect the many from the few.

and by sleep next to, I mean there was a curtain between the beds, as there are at night

I don't think I would have liked it. I would have loved my husband to be there, but if I'd been on a ward I wouldn't have wanted other men. Apart from the vulnerability issue, the noise would be awful. Of course couples are going to talk to one another, and the noise of babies and nurses is bad enough without extra bodies overnight.

I know that some women like the idea - it wouldn't be happening if nobody wanted it, but I know my friend felt uncomfortable, and I fully understood where she was coming from. As I say, though, it was just an example of how single sex spaces are not always about trans issues, and at no point did I say that men should be banned from maternity wards, or anything approximating that.

My friend (with her sick child) has had to sleep next to dads masturbating on children's wards next to their children.

The behaviour I have encountered on children's wards over the years leads me to believe there has to be regulation and boundaries in place.

I wish I'd had a lovely life, where everyone was lovely and nothing unlovely never happened

Men staying on maternity wards is a common discussion amongst young women on MN. There are differing views on it obviously. There were many many accounts of inappropriate behaviour . It's a perfectly bog standard discussion for women who are about to give birth. It's quite complex obviously with a range of views existing.

Mollygo

Dead cat strategies! Excellent description of some of your posts G.

The place is littered with them, Molly. I wish we could actually debate things, but instead we are having to reword the same things over and over, or explain the workings out. I can't believe that Glorianny is really unable to understand basic English or Maths, so can only conclude that it is a tactic to divert the conversation from the topic at hand.

you say. (I've had enough of trying to respond to your posts,)
........................................
It is not compulsory to respond to others posts! sometimes it's better to give it a rest!

Dead cat strategies! Excellent description of some of your posts G.

You didn't say that organisations make money from toilets, Rosie. It's another dead cat.

I note you mentioned open visiting (even during the one hour quiet time) at your hospital. From someone with numerous midwives in the family and wider circle, past and present, I can assure you that was most definitely not a widespread practice 40 years ago. Did your hospital allow those men to stay all night on the ward? I think you missed this part of my post Glorianny Your experience 40 years ago was very far from typical. I'd still like to know if the hospital allowed men to stay overnight on the ward?

Are there any commercial organisations making money from toilets? I never said there were, why would you think I did? I pointed out that extending the area available to accommodate single room toilets would reduce the space for the profit making part of the business. You appear to be happy to take a reduction in the number of units, with the subsequent longer queues. in your example If there are 8 ladies and 8 gents cubicles, a proper cubicle takes perhaps about x2 space as the old ones 16 cubicles would become 8, so perhaps 2 designated women only, 2 men only and 4 either. So access would be to 6 units rather than 8 not a huge loss. You seem oblivious to the fact that you now have 8 cubicles to serve the same number of people that used to have 16. Mathematics not your strong point eh?

I didn't say there were a lot of women insisting that men couldn't stay ? - I said that they were uncomfortable with having men close by because they felt vulnerable. It wasn't a distraction, it was an illustration which became a distraction because of the dead cat attempt.

You are quite right that the thread has drifted from whether or not more young people are gay than used to be the case. Dead cats have a habit of causing that. My opinion (already expressed) is that I doubt it, but I think that (a) it is easier to say so now, so I am not surprised if more have declared it, and (b) the inclusion of TQ+ in the terminology has rendered the comparison useless. For various reasons, the 'research' would never get past any sort of reputable scrutiny committee.

After I gave birth I can't remember being particularly bothered about who was around me. I just wanted to get out of hospital and back to my own bed.

If there are lots of women insisting men can't stay I haven't heard about them. But there may be. Still not sure it is anything apart from a distraction.

The topic of the thread by the way isn't even trans issues. It's the growth in the numbers of young gay people. I think there is a hugely more respectful and caring attitude amongst the young for people who are different.

I don't find any of this funny. Again, you are using 'dead cat' strategies, or trying to.

Let's talk about a fictional situation where Doodledog said she wanted to ban men from maternity wards/that legislation is a panacea, and concentrate on drawing imaginary plans for loos with private facilities for all instead of even attempting to stick to the topic of the thread, as doing that would mean finding ways to avoid answering difficult questions.

Ignoring the dead cat - I don't want to see men banned from maternity wards (clue - that's why I never said any such thing). I mentioned them, as I said in my post, to illustrate the fact that you struggle to understand, namely that it is not transphobia that drives the wishes of many women to keep their spaces single-sex. It is the wish to not have uninvited men in close proximity when we are vulnerable. A newly postpartum woman is extremely vulnerable (as are prisoners, rape victims and others) and at such times, particularly overnight when they are likely to be undressed and when there will be fewer people around than in the daytime, many will prefer to be in the company of other women if they can't be with their own partner and/or family.

Now, you may not have felt like that - I did suspect that this would be the case - but a quick glance at Mumsnet will show that many women do feel as my friend did. It seems perfectly reasonable to me. But as I say, it was an illustration, not something that needed to be trashed to make some sort of point.

I have no idea what you mean by the idea that some things will be made better by the trans movement. I don't accept the toilets thing, for the reasons I gave, and can't see what else there is. But in any case, the question is whether the things we are being asked told to give up are worth losing in order to get some crumbs that have accidentally been dropped along the way.

So are men to be banned from maternity wards?

As for the argument that there will be less toilets, so you think waiting longer for a wee isn't a price worth paying for safety?
Are there any commercial organisations making money from toilets?
If there are 8 ladies and 8 gents cubicles, a proper cubicle takes
perhaps about x2 space as the old ones 16 cubicles would become 8, so perhaps 2 designated women only, 2 men only and 4 either. So access would be to 6 units rather than 8 not a huge loss.
Funny isn't it. Suggest things are changing and problems are being solved and there is so much nit picking. Anything rather than acknowledge some things will be better thanks to the trans movement.

Sorry but I really don't understand why you would bring that in to a discussion about trans and gay issues.
I assume Doodledog was illustrating there are places we don't want to be open access to any male bodied people, not just transwomen.

What do you want done about it? Men banned completely? But what about those women who want the father of their baby there all the time? Should one woman have the right to dictate to the other 3 when their partner should be permitted to see them and their baby? You seem to be saying you don't think one woman should have the right to dictate to 3 other women. Why then can one transwoman dictate that their rights override the rights of a larger number? I note you mentioned open visiting (even during the one hour quiet time) at your hospital. From someone with numerous midwives in the family and wider circle, past and present, I can assure you that was most definitely not a widespread practice 40 years ago. Did your hospital allow those men to stay all night on the ward?

As for everywhere providing single cubicles with a wash basin, that will of necessity reduce the total number of cubicles available. Commercial operations are not going to reduce financially rewarding space to accommodate the same number of larger cubicles. Do you not acknowledge Doodledog's point about each cubicle potentially being occupied for longer with hair and makeup adjustments being performed, while others may "simply want to pee"? And I wonder how long It shouldn't take that long for others to do the same is?

Doodledog

Do you read people's posts?

First you 'misconstrue' my saying that legislation will not prevent people from doing anything to say the opposite, and now you are 'missing' the bit of my last post where I say that 'it is not just transpeople who are not welcome in women's spaces' and a further explanation of why that is the case in the final paragraph. You even quoted it ?.

Are you so keen to prove me wrong/make me look stupid that you can't wait long enough to find something you could properly argue against, but have to jump in with both feet to take issue with something I have not only not said, but have actually contradicted? It's tedious, and doesn't move the thread on at all.

Sorry but I really don't understand why you would bring that in to a discussion about trans and gay issues. What do you want done about it? Men banned completely? But what about those women who want the father of their baby there all the time? Should one woman have the right to dictate to the other 3 when their partner should be permitted to see them and their baby?
And the hospital I gave birth in had open visiting times except for an hour in the afternoon which was designated "quiet " time and fathers could remain for that as long as they made no noise.
I must say I haven't heard of anyone wanting to ban fathers from maternity wards before. Perhaps you could direct me to something that would tell me more about the subject.

Rosie51 Once again a misrepresentation of my views. I have said some spaces are impossible to police, places like toilets and public changing rooms. And that therefore they cannot be protected spaces. Other safe spaces are protected by law.
I don't think converting toilets would take too long . New builds are providing single cubicles, conversions and improvements are providing them. It shouldn't take that long for others to do the same. And the provision will be so much better.

Rosie51

Didn't see your post Doodledog it takes me a lot longer than 2 minutes to type!

It always takes me ages too, Rosie, but it's good to see that we reached similar conclusions independently, before we are accused of being a tag team again