Are young people turning gay?

I'd have no problem with any staff changes Galaxy the abolition of the whole organisation is entirely another question. It would be good if it was simply made unnecessary because NHS provision was so good (but I won't hold my breath)
The problem is would children with autism, if there was absolutely no help whatsoever and they were waiting for an appointment to diagnose them, make use of the internet to find alternatives? Because I think trans children would and do.

Glorianny

I'm with the CEO of the Fawcett Society on this . www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/blog/sex-and-gender-identity-finding-a-way-forward?gclid=Cj0KCQjw166aBhDEARIsAMEyZh6ojGAr3-TvhG5i-_LmiamY2tCQKHkYdmu0Lo7Qer4MVfp9h6_3i9YaAhuBEALw_wcB

Thanks for sharing this

There is an appalling lack of services for children with autism at the moment, well has been forever to be honest. If there are organisations supporting children with autism who have serious safeguarding failures (and of course there are) I dont want those to be allowed to continue in their current form just because of that shortage. Those children are worth more than that.
I cant predict what will happen in relation to the investigation into Mermaids but my guess is that the current management will go, they have lost a number of trustees already.

I think that wasnt that clear to be honest Glorianny, although I agree on the sex based rights part. I think there was a fair bit of fence sitting and hedging bets there. Some progress I think though.

I'm with the CEO of the Fawcett Society on this . www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/blog/sex-and-gender-identity-finding-a-way-forward?gclid=Cj0KCQjw166aBhDEARIsAMEyZh6ojGAr3-TvhG5i-_LmiamY2tCQKHkYdmu0Lo7Qer4MVfp9h6_3i9YaAhuBEALw_wcB

Galaxy

We have been discussing massive safeguarding failures rather than toilets.

The safeguarding failures have exactly the same roots as the toilet provision. If you fail to recognise something then someone will act in a way that may not be perfectly acceptable. As a result the issues are highlighted. Provision of some kind is made, but it isn't necessarily proper provision and it is in some ways inadequate, that provision is looked at and is adapted. Eventually good practice is established and maintained. But it's a journey and it doesn't happen over night.

Take the provision of transprisons. The placing of transwomen into women's prisons was the direct result of transwomen committing suicide when they were placed in male prisons. They had said they would do this if they were put into a man's prison. So judges who probably knew little about transwomen were faced with the dilemma of where to place them. They chose to put them in women's prisons, which was a wrong decision. But it led to the creation of trans units.

I can't see that calling for the closing down of any organisation which is trying to help trans children helps anyone. It may need changes in policies and practice but it is providing some help to some children. Leaving them without any resources and with a waiting list of 4 years to get an appointment with a gender clinic is not safeguarding them. It is leaving them to explore much darker areas through the internet, where there is information and advice much worse than that offered by Mermaids.

I would also like to know what you mean in your post @ 10.07 VS.

Re. your posts @ 10.20 and 10.21 Lathyrus, it doesn't make any sense to me either.

VioletSky

Which is exactly how people are wriggling out of this

As you have wriggled out of answering my question below? VS.

“makes space for them to be their authentic selves”
What exactly does that mean?

Galaxy
I think I’ll join you on this one.
I think gender is oppressive and I am not going to support the stereotypes involved in it. My beliefs are protected in law. I might get a t shirt with this on to save time

The realities of what is happening in the lives of young people
as in girls or AHF being faced with a male in their changing room or toilet and males being given the right to be there and the girls punished for complaining, or males upskirting girls . . . are indeed worlds apart from what we suffered as girls.
Not so far distant from discussions on GN.

There are hundreds of thousands of public toilets which are not as you describe Glorianny. How long will it take for those to reach the standard of these shiny new university buildings? Meanwhile, youngsters have to share old fashioned toilets with adults in a variety of different, and sometimes outdoor, settings, and that is the reality.

We have been discussing massive safeguarding failures rather than toilets.

So I have just had a couple of days spending time in a new university building. The loos were separate cubicles, lockable doors, and floor to ceiling walls, each with its own washing facilities and mirror. Two women only, two either gender and two men only. And it struck me that the arguments on here are outdated. That things are already changing and will continue to change. And actually proper loo facilities, with provision for washing, benefit all of us and are more hygienic. So acceptance of transpeople can bring benefits for all.

If someone is going to tell me that most loos won't change. When I started teaching some schools still had outside toilets for children. I'd say within 10 years all of those had gone because they were considered unacceptable and indoor facilities were provided. I anticipate the same will happen with gender considerate toilets now.
The realities of what is happening in the lives of young people and the theoretical discussions on GN are worlds apart.

VioletSky

But it's not about sex it's about gender

So there is no need to say that

Can you explain what you mean by this? I don’t mean by telling us that sex and gender we different as we all know that.

What do you see gender as meaning? I can try to explain my own views, but I have done so many times and it will be boring. I think that if we can get to the bottom of what people mean by gender, and what they think ‘being a woman (or a man) means when they talk about ‘knowing inside’, then we have more chance of reaching an understanding. What do you think that Galaxy is wriggling out of?

I am not wriggling out of anything. Those are my beliefs. They are fundamental to me.

Even worse when somebody else says, “because you behave in a certain way, like to dress in a certain way, play with these kinds of toys,” you must be in the wrong body.

I think our concepts of gender are oppressive too.

I don’t accept that certain styles of dress, interests, careers, whatever, make you a woman or a man. They just stop you from being the ‘authentic” person you are and stop others accepting you for who you are.

So when someone says “I’ll keep this male/female body but because of what I wear or do or even play with as a child I am a woman\man” that doesn’t make any sense to me.

Which is exactly how people are wriggling out of this

I think gender is oppressive and I am not going to support the stereotypes involved in it. My beliefs are protected in law. I might get a t shirt with this on to save time

But it's not about sex it's about gender

So there is no need to say that

You posted yesterday @ 18.44 Doodledog "I think that accepting the person without validating the fantasy is perfectly possible" and I agree with this.

Trans women who think it is acceptable for example to compete against natal women in sport, have bought into the fantasy that men can change sex and become women so are competing on a level playing field, which of course they're not.

There are harmless myths, at one time believed by many children that they eventually grow out of; Father Christmas, The Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny. Believing that it is possible to change sex is not just a myth, it's one that can have disastrous consequences.

You are right Prentice that it being 'easier' and more acceptable to come out as gay is bound to "skew the figures" when making generational comparisons.

I do accept people for who they are. That's the bit that gets so frustrating about these conversations. I know and accept transpeople and non-binary people. The ones I know are aware that they are trans and none pretend to be the opposite sex though, although they 'present' as such. I call people by whatever name they use themselves, but I will not declare a pronoun myself, as I think it is intrusive and that it signifies buying into an belief system I don't share.

I don't force gender roles or identities or anything else on anyone, and nor do I insist that they conform to stereotypes. I simply do not believe that men can be women just because they say so, and I would not encourage a child to think that either.

What makes you think that I don't 'make space' for people to be their 'authentic selves'? I don't talk in language like that, but that doesn't mean I don't do it .

I will never believe that transwomen are women, and I don't want them in women's spaces or women's sport, any more than I want any men there. To me, their 'authentic selves' are transwomen, but so what? It's a part of who they are, as are many other things about them.

I have to say, though, that I do have experience of TRAs not returning the favour. Trying to cancel people (in a field where social media presence is vital) for a slip of the tongue or saying what they deem to be the wrong thing. It can be quite horrible, really. Tolerance should be a two way street.

Prentice, if transwomen are not going to be allowed in women's prisons, that is great news.

And it's all blatantly ridiculously complicated I know but I don't know what to do about it other than love good people for who they are on the inside and make space for them to be their authentic selves whether I understand it all or not.
Good cop out VS.
But once again you use waffle like
“makes space for them to be their authentic selves”
What exactly does that mean?

I have not read all the comments here, far too many for that, but to answer the OP I think there will be around about the same number of people who identify as gay as there ever were in the past. What will skew the figures is that today it is acceptable to come out and say you are gay or think you are gay.
I see the thread has meandered back to the trans issue again, and possibly to the awful group who call themselves Mermaids.I see that they are under investigation for various matters which may help to show what their aims really are.
Happy to read today that no trans women will be housed in womens prisons in future.

doodledog

It's not about sex it's about gender so you would have to accept them as their internal gender to accept then

Whether that is trans man, trans woman or gender fluid

Always use chosen pronouns and back that up in general, like when someone misgenders on this thread, saying that is wrong to do.

And understand that both men and women perpetuate gender norms and that they aren't likely to go away completely but at least we can choose not to conform and we should be able to do so without forcing harmful stereotypes on people questioning their gender making them think they can only be one or the other

And it's all blatantly ridiculously complicated I know but I don't know what to do about it other than love good people for who they are on the inside and make space for them to be their authentic selves whether I understand it all or not

Hello, Glorianny. I'm still waiting to hear why you thought that my 'ridiculous' post upthread was saying that criminalising something would stop people doing it when in fact I said the opposite. Twice.

VS
As I said, and also the Cass report says we need to look at people questioning their gender as a whole and not only that issue and ensure mistakes aren't made.

I would, as I keep saying, support a child to get the right help. The only other option is to get them no help. I don't deem myself qualified to encourage or discourage. That's acceptance.

So how does that differ from what I said? I would neither encourage nor discourage either - I just wouldn't play along with a pretence that they could change sex. Also, what is 'the right help'? I think we all want children to get that, but the question is - what is it?

What does it mean for people want to have a 'gender identity' recognised, Glorianny? If someone doesn't want to change sex, so (for the sake of argument) is a girl/woman and knows it, but wants a different 'gender ID', what, specifically, does she want? She can already work as a plumber, wear jeans and hoodies (or whatever is age-appropriate) cut her hair and drink pints - many women already do all of that without wanting to change ID - so what is it? To be referred to as 'he' when not there? I'm not being flippant, but that's not the difficult bit - the problem comes when men say that they are women and take away our single sex spaces. If they are content to be in the male sex, why not behave accordingly, and use facilities for men, with the other male people, and leave women in peace? They can do the 'gender' thing at the same time.

Finally, for the millionth time, transmen are not mentioned as often because they do not present a threat to women in the way that some transwomen do.

I think all this depends on whether you are a top down thinker or a bottom up thinker