Are young people turning gay?

Er we know about the rise in transmen, it's what should have flagged up some of the issues more quickly. Because the percentage increase was so rapid.

G
But one of the big mistakes made on these threads is that transgender people are all the same, they aren't.
I’m not sure that anyone on any thread about trans has made that mistake.
The public face of trans is caused by the negative actions of the few.
How would you like the “gender identity” to be recognised Glorianny?

You can dress as whatever gender you like.
Call yourself what gender you like
Both those are to do with gender, not sex.

With gender, people feel they can flip from day to day or remain constant.
Sex is immutable and has rights attached to it.

What is it you are asking for on behalf of “gender identity”?

As I said, and also the Cass report says we need to look at people questioning their gender as a whole and not only that issue and ensure mistakes aren't made.

I would, as I keep saying, support a child to get the right help.

The only other option is to get them no help

I don't deem myself qualified to encourage or discourage.

That's acceptance

But I don't think most transgender people feel they have changed sex. They are very clear on that. There may be a few that do. But one of the big mistakes made on these threads is that transgender people are all the same, they aren't. Some simply socially transition, some use hormones, some have surgery. These threads always focus on transwomen, but there are increasing numbers of transmen. Generalisation such as "they will never be anything other than the sex they were born" really doesn't address the issues for the majority who don't want to be a different sex but want their gender identity to be recognised.

So many detransition stories are actually related to not conforming to gender norms and the way people are treated because of that.

But a lot of problems around the trans and non gender conforming communities seem to have roots in sexism

But is the alternative to just go along with something that is never going to be true, and tell a vulnerable child that she can change sex?

How is that fair? When they realise that whatever they do they will never be anything other than the sex they were born, will they blame the adults who encouraged them in the fantasy? There has been a huge rise in the number of young people wanting to transition over the past few years (or it certainly seems that that is the case), and they haven't grown up yet. We don't know what problems are being stored up for later - there are already well-publicised cases of people desperate to detransition. With waiting lists as they are, there could be a backlog before now, and the chances are that they'll look back and blame the adults who went along with it all. Some already are.

Oh of course in the way that if my child became religious I would accept them of course, but would not believe what they believed. When my son was 4 he went through a deeply religious phase, then started pronouncing his atheism to the world in his catholic high school Re assignments

VioletSky

Right....

Exactly.

I think they would know that doodledog, that's the problem. Wouldn't matter if you were an Oscar worthy actor, family knows us too well. And obviously if they wanted hormone therapy or surgery, that's more hurdles you would have to try and hide your feelings through

But then, I don't think any of us can really say how we would react unless actually in that situation.

And I think it is probably hard for anyone no matter how accepting they are and they may need support

Being transgender and knowing all that is probably why so many struggle so much with mental health

I don't think clothes have anything to do with sex, and whereas they are a signifier of 'gender', they have precious little to do with that either.

What I meant was, if faced with a distressed child (and assuming I had a good reason to be involved, so a grandchild or something), I think I would want to humour them as best I could, so as not to frighten them off, and would accept their choices about how to present themselves. I did that with my children - they never got involved with trans issues, but we had Emo, Skater, Grunge etc, and later there were tattoos, piercings and so on. I didn't always like it, but respected their right to choose how they looked. In any case, a lot of girls wear hoodies and jeans, so there would be little difference. The point is that I think I would accept them, but not encourage anything permanent, and definitely not buy into anything about being in the wrong body.

I don't think I am expressing this very well, and I'm not equating being a goth with being trans - what I mean is that I think that accepting the person without validating the fantasy is perfect possible.

Right....

Interesting on here this afternoon. Whether or not you say transwomen are transwomen or transwomen are women is immaterial and can suit your own personal choice, providing it isn’t used for deceit.

They both mean male, because males have misappropriated the word ‘women’ to suit their own ends and because changing sex from male to female or female to male is impossible.
Supporting children who have a desire to be a different gender is one thing. Good to see increasing acceptance that chemical or physical changes for younger children are no longer thought the best option.

Calling them by whatever they wish to be known, e.g. a son or a daughter is not a problem unless used for a deceitful purpose.

Lying that they have changed sex and are therefore entitled to claim any perquisites that belong to people born that sex is deceitful.

IMO such deceit is as wrong as any deceit. If it impacts harmfully on other people, it’s doubly wrong.

However I’m aware that some people find deceit an acceptable way of life as long as it’s their choice to deceive.

Oh yes of course but that's probably because I dont think clothes have anything to do with sex if you kniw what I mean.

I can't see the harm in someone dressing how they like and using whatever name they like, so long as they aren't told that it will lead to changing sex, or are encouraged to get surgery or any other body modifications.

My nephew went through a stage of insisting he was Hercules. We all humoured him and even his teachers called him that (he was 4 or 5), until he grew out of it, which, of course, he did. He was accepted, but not allowed to think he could carry our seven labours or anything.

I would be very cautious as they are saying they dont know if social affirmation is harmful or not. So it would be a risk.

What did I say that doesn't indicate acceptance? I think it's perfectly possible to accept someone without pretending that something is happening when it isn't.

Which is why I say transwomen are transwomen.

We'd be talking about transmen in this situation, but the principle is the same.

I'd have a son and not a daughter

As I said previously in another post, I think acceptance would go a long way to not needing to seek validation other ways

Which is why I say TWAW

Ok, but what if a parent's idea of support is not to allow binding? IYO, can you only be supportive if you 'validate' a child's desire to change sex?

I haven't faced this in my family, but I would definitely want to support any young person who came to me for help. However, I don't think that it would be supportive to encourage a child to do something that could have long-term consequences in pursuit of a goal that is biologically unachievable. I would probably advise them to change their name if they wanted to, ask relevant people to behave as though they were a boy (and have a detailed conversation about what they thought that would entail). They could dress in trousers and unisex tops (most of them do anyway), and generally behave as they think boys do. I would have regular conversations about how this was working out, and try to tease out what it is about being a boy that they find preferable to being a girl, in the hope that providing whatever it is might make things easier for them.

I know that I'm talking about an entirely hypothetical situation here, and that I'm making it sound a lot easier than it probably would be; but even so, I think that that sort of approach would be a lot more useful than reaching straight for a binder. When the girl got to 18 or so, if she was still determined to 'become' a man, it would be up to her, but she would have heard all the arguments and lived with a new ID to see if it made her happy, but without taking drastic action.

I can't really judge as I'm not in that situation with a child wanting to bind and I don't know what I would do so in most scenarios I would look for advice or the law...

If they make them illegal then that is what it is but I don't think it will stop people. I've read of too many actually mutilating themselves and one person said that the desire to do so was so strong that the only thing that stopped them was a professional saying that might make them not qualify for future surgery.

I'd rather a binder than a worse solution but I would want that tied in with professional support and advice.

Young people need a family willing to get them that support and advice too and too often that isn't happening.

So I want young people to get 1. support from parents and 2. quick access to professionals

I think that would do more good than making binders illegal

No, I wasn't suggesting you were, honestly. Which post, or bit of a post did you mean? Apart from when I asked what you understood my earlier post, I wasn't directing anything at you personally.

Not sure I understand really doodledog?

I'm an individual with my own opinions and I don't jump bandwagons going my way

Yes, for all I'm looking forward to seeing Mermaids get its comeuppance, it will be a hollow victory, as so many young people have suffered as a result of their philosophy.

Yes it was the gender critical feminists who raised concerns about the absolute awfulness of telling young people their body was wrong. Mermaids did some fabulous backtracking about that phrase, it would have been funny to watch if it hadnt been for the damage left in its wake.

Agreed, Galaxy. With a few exceptions, I think that many of the things being done under the 'trans' umbrella have been done with good intentions. I think that the reason that TRAs latched onto Stonewall is because most people don't want to repeat the phobic behaviour that gay people faced in the past, and making links with the organisation that did so much for gay people allowed the trans lobby to piggyback on that reluctance. It is also why, IMO, there are so many totally spurious links made between criticism of the trans agenda (as opposed to transpeople) and homophobia.

It also helps that accusations that gender criticism is born of right-wing small-mindedness of the DM variety, mixed with homophobia and a desire for conformity are anathema to most GC people. They are lazy and inaccurate slurs, obviously, but they are the ones reached for when rational argument fails, and are almost guaranteed to be seen as offensive by those on the receiving end.

Unfortunately, there are those who will believe almost anything if it is said often enough, and those of their number who see themselves as kindly, open-minded and tolerant will position themselves on the side of those claiming the moral high ground. They don't see themselves in the way the trans lobby portrays anyone who disagrees, so they automatically agree with their claims (eg TWAW), however obvious it is that they are groundless.

It's a mess, and I hope that now the Tavistock and Mermaids are coming under scrutiny, and now that groups such as the LGB Alliance are separating from Stonewall, clear light will be shone on the trans agenda, and more people will realise that there is no link between the homophobia of old and unrelated concerns about men being able to 'be' women just because they say they are, and that children can be 'born in the wrong body'

I think certainly lots of organisations thought they were helping, it's just they were doing this against a backdrop of no data or follow up.