Are young people turning gay?

Thanks VS, but I was really asking what you understood I was saying, rather than whether you agreed with the premise ?.

I thought it was clear that I agree with what you said, basically- that it wouldn’t solve the problem but it would help - but Glorianny persistently misunderstood, said the idea was ‘ridiculous’, and accused me of selective quoting. I just wanted to check whether my posts were, in fact clear, as she hasn’t responded. It looks as though they were,

Where I disagree with you is that it isn’t a defence to say you are ‘trying to help’. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Sometimes it is clear why someone would break the law to help a loved one, and I can’t say hand on heart that I would never do it if the circumstances dictated, but that wouldn’t make it right. Where would you draw the line? Like it or not, and a lot of the time we won’t like individual laws that affect our own lives, the motive has to be unimportant or there would be no point in having laws at all. I might feel it is ok to get drugs for a dying person and you might see it as murder. You might think it’s ok to help a child to bind her breasts, and I might see it as abuse. Robin Hood would have a case for acting with good intentions. The reason we have laws at all is to take the judgment away from individuals and give it to the courts, whether we agree or not.

Making something illegal is the first step. It never stops anything, but standing by, and doing nothing, whilst letting people sell binders as safe or promoting them as ‘safer’ is wrong.
Excusing it in the grounds you quote above, e.g. the cigarettes is just that. An excuse to carry on doing something wrong, because others will do it anyway. Excusing it on the grounds that people will watch TikTok videos is another excuse.
Binders do harm, whether they are “manufactured” or home made.
If the message goes out about them doing harm it will stop some from experimenting. If selling and promoting them is illegal it will stop some selling them.
If people stop pretending that binders are safe or safer and making excuses for selling and promoting them, it’s a start, and it has to start somewhere.

Doodledog

Short answer, I don't think it would stop people using them

Long answer, yes it would deter law abiding people selling them but I would worry that law abiding people would at least be trying to help more than harm and trying ro follow some sort of regulations advice if they exist.

Non law abiding people would be looking to profit and less likely to care about that. And anyone who couldn't afford them may still be looking to extremes like duct tape.

When I see those daft tiktok trends for doing ridiculous harmful challenges... Well I wonder how on earth we stop a teen hell bent on something because we are all trying to educate them not to do daft things and doing at least some daft things seems to be hardwired in to humanity.

Also, it's quite shocking when you think about what is legal really.

Take cigarettes, so much is known about how harmful they are yet easily obtainable.

I see your point because e cigarettes are sold as being less harmful than cigarettes yet the data doesn't actually exist long term to know that.

However, what would happen if we took cigarettes or e cigarettes away? Well, those cheap cigarettes that are already smuggled into the country and haven't passed the low bar regulations we do have on the things and are even more harmful... Well, the guys selling those would suddenly be very rich indeed and lots of people would be sniffing the air and thinking Bob next door needed reporting.

Whether it's that dodgy guy down the pub or the dark Web that renders everything untraceable and unpoliceable...

People find a way.

We have laws about speed and yet, cars can almost all exceed or even go double or tripple the speed limit..

Because people are people

This isn't an ideal world unfortunately

VioletSky

GagaJo

Very well said, Violet Sky. And you've got a damn sight more patience than most of us who share your opinions. So well done and thanks!

I'm a very patient person

It doesn't always help me lol

I don't know, I think you do. Because those arguing against you turn these threads into a groundhog day scenario. Last one standing!! Well done

VS May I test your patience further by asking whether you think that I said upthread that making binders illegal would prevent their sale, or whether you read my post as saying that although legislation would not do that, it would at least deter many people (the law-abiding ones) from selling them?

I would appreciate an honest answer, please. I can quote if you can’t find the post, but it has already been quoted more than once.

GagaJo

Very well said, Violet Sky. And you've got a damn sight more patience than most of us who share your opinions. So well done and thanks!

I'm a very patient person

It doesn't always help me lol

“Well actually I think it’s fairly obvious binding with duct tape is going to cause all sorts of problems.

Yes all sorts of problems. Is it going to cause more problems that a commercially purchased binder. We don’t know

How many people look at the duct tape video and think Oh no and would then not bind but look at the commercial binder and think that must be ok. So that the numbers who bind are greater than they would have been if the commercial “safer option” had not been promoted to them? We don’t know

Is home binding generally tighter than the commercial binder? Are elastic bandages applied at home a better option?
We don’t know

Which of all of those methods that might be used is the most or least harmful We don’t know

Nothing is obvious. What you’ve posted is just assumption and speculation.

We don’t know and individuals and, more worryingly, organisations and companies carry on with statements that they know to be false. Giving reassurance where none can be given.

Totally unwilling to face up to the damage they are doing, whether for profit or some more personal agenda.

What can be sad truthfully about binding is that it harms breast tissue.
But all that you can truthfully say about comparative forms of binding is We don’t know

It’s not patience it’s refusing to listen.

Very well said, Violet Sky. And you've got a damn sight more patience than most of us who share your opinions. So well done and thanks!

Nope people cant change sex because it's not possible. Not because more women exist. If all women disappeared tomorrow would make no difference to the fact that we cant change sex.
I think the suicide statistics are generally used in discussions in a deeply irresponsible way to be honest.
If there is not enough evidence I will refrain from doing it then in case it's actually causing damage to the people I actually do care about.

Not enough evidence is not "disagree" galaxy.

It is not enough evidence

Likely because not nearly enough time and money has been invested in services for young people questioning their gender

And as much as I think much more time and money should be invested and you probably think much more time and money needs to be invested... there are those who do not want them time and money invested in what they see as a small minority who "cannot change sex" and need to be sent away and told that they can only be trans in a publicly known and private sense and must otherwise be the sex they were born with because more women exist who matter more and its all just the patriarchy trying to get in our loos.

And let's let the truth stand that the suicide rate is factually much higher in those experiencing gender dysphoria and that when it comes to bullying, harassment, attacks, being ostracised by family, self harm and suicide... young trans people are one of the most vulnerable groups in society.

Which is why, no matter how toxic these discussions get, I am still bloody here asking for enough space that they don't harm themselves

OK thanks

Not enough evidence on affirmation either, all the things we have been saying for so so long.

I also completely agree that just dealing with children or young people's questions about gender and not looking at or addressing their other needs is wrong.

A holistic approach is definitely needed to prevent mistakes

But that is what is now planned right?

Galaxy

I just want people to read it and they will see the concerns expressed about affirmation, the way treatment for gender dysphoria hasnt followed treatment pathways etc. I dont need you to refer to anything about it. It just means people can see the most up to date information.

Unless everyone in the discussion is willing to read a thing you haven't linked that they need to download to their device... we should be able to have a conversation about it galaxy

So I don't understand why you are saying it doesn't agree with me when so far, it is?

The system needs reworking, gender dysphoria needs a more proper and thorough diagnosis, waiting lists are too long, mistakes have been made... yup agree

Tonight I have read down to hormone treatments and there is "insufficient evidence" because not enough follow ups have been done.

Have you read the whole thing?

I just want people to read it and they will see the concerns expressed about affirmation, the way treatment for gender dysphoria hasnt followed treatment pathways etc. I dont need you to refer to anything about it. It just means people can see the most up to date information.

112 pages, I'm 24 in and so far it backs up my views.

I'm not sure how long this will take galaxy so unless there is something you want to refer me to specifically I'll get back to you when I've finished

Never mind, found it

As for the mind and body question it might be quite valid. Unfortunately there is so little provision for children's mental health now it is unlikely any of them will get any help at all.

Agreed, and something should absolutely be done about that, but IMO the answer is not to encourage children to damage their bodies, and it is not sensible for them to be told that they can change sex. Two wrongs (the lack of funding for CAMHS and the encouragement of binding) do not make a right.

Also I didn't mention suicide in my last post so I have nothing to relate your comment too

Galaxy

The cass report disagrees with you VS. Many countries are moving away from the affirmation model. As I have said it appears that surgery has no impact on suicide figures. But because there has been little follow up or analysis its impossible to show benefit or harm.

Sorry but specifically what are you referring too galaxy

And where can I also read the entire cass report?

Lathyrus

But until we know Glorianna that the commercial binders are less damaging than the homemade ones then advocating them as a preference, “a safer” options , is irresponsible.

I can’t go with the assertion made previously that they “must be better” simply because you can bury them.

Companies don’t produce them out of concern for transwomen, they produce and advertise them because they are profitable. They’ve done no research into what is least harmful.

Over and over again in many many products we have seen companies suppressing the harm their products do, promoting for profit what they know to be harmful, sponsoring biased research.

How can you be so sure that the commercial products are less harmful in the long term than a homemade alternative. If the commercial binder is tighter than a homemade attempt with bandages then the commercial one could be the more harmful.

You don’t know. I don’t know. Nobody knows.

Don’t you think it’s morally wrong to keep saying you do?

Well actually I think it's fairly obvious that binding with duct tape is going to cause all sorts of problems. As far as bandages go, they generally have less stretchability and could easily be wound too tight.
The other thing is the acceptability. If a child can be open and discuss binding without feeling they are going to be either dismissed or told they mustn't do it isn't that better than them doing it in secret? (with help from the internet)
No one has said binders are completely safe. No one has advocated their indiscriminate use. But there are so few ways a child can access support now and providing something which might help, discussing the pros and cons and giving advice about usage is surely better than leaving them to it.
The idea that they wouldn't do it if there weren't binders available just doesn't hold water.

As for the mind and body question it might be quite valid. Unfortunately there is so little provision for children's mental health now it is unlikely any of them will get any help at all.

I would ask anyone reading to read the recommendations of the cass report to see accurate information on the current situation around affirmation, the way the treatment pathway for gender dysphoria has not developed in line with the treatment pathway for other conditions, etc.

Glorianny

Doodledog

Where did I say that criminalising things stops people doing it?

What do you think I meant when I said It is virtually impossible to stop any sort of behaviour. Laws, punishments, social pressure - none of these things will stop people from doing what they want to do, if they want to do it badly enough.?

I'd be interested to hear how that could be misunderstood, even by the most determined.

Always interesting when someone posts half a comment. You also said but there are ways to make that more difficult, such as by making it a criminal offence to provide binders, in the same way as it is an offence to sell alcohol to children, or to sell certain drugs to anyone. Of course that doesn't prevent the sale of drugs and booze by criminals, but it flags up that it is not acceptable, and the illegality will deter the law-abiding

But of course that doesn't quite fit in with the "Who wants to make anything criminal". stance.
So you have a problem with girls who don't want to have breasts they are developing, they are ashamed of them. Why not make things much worse for them by making it illegal to sell them a binder? Then not only can they feel ashamed of their breasts they can feel guilty about the binder they bought. Or they could use bandages and duct-tape. All the instructions are on-line!

Dear God!

I quoted the bit where I had expressly said that criminalising something will not make it go away - you know, the bit you found 'ridiculous', and patronisingly pointed out that people still take drugs and go to jail for selling them - in response to your comments.

Here is the post in total, although that may make the post a bit too long to hold your attention:
It is virtually impossible to stop any sort of behaviour. Laws, punishments, social pressure - none of these things will stop people from doing what they want to do, if they want to do it badly enough.

So no, there is no way to stop children binding; but there are ways to make that more difficult, such as by making it a criminal offence to provide binders, in the same way as it is an offence to sell alcohol to children, or to sell certain drugs to anyone. Of course that doesn't prevent the sale of drugs and booze by criminals, but it flags up that it is not acceptable, and the illegality will deter the law-abiding.

Speaking of selectivity, you chose to ignore the first bit about laws not stopping people, instead concentrating on the last bit of the last sentence (also editing out the beginning of that sentence where I reiterated that *Of course that doesn't prevent the sale of drugs and booze by criminals*), and turned that into my being too stupid to have heard of the prohibition, and being unaware of the fact that there are people in jail for drugs offences. Nobody who has read the posts will fall for that one - either you misread my post or your attempt at a 'gotcha' missed the mark. Twice. You are wriggling, and it is obvious.

Also, I never took a stance about not making things criminal. Again, that is either twisting what I have said (I don't really understand what a 'who wants to make anything criminal' stance is, tbh) or you are conflating my posts with someone else's.

Assuming the 'so you have a problem. . .ashamed of them'. thing is aimed at me, you are putting words in my mouth/telling me what I think again with that one. What I said was that if a child wants to bind her breasts it would be better to find out why than to move straight to advice to bind. The rest of your 'argument' leads from that, so is based on a false premise and doesn't stack up.

Do you think that it is ok for girls to bind budding breasts, and for them to be deliberately encouraged to avoid telling their parents? I don't need to be told again that doing so with a 'legal' binder is better than with duct tape, incidentally - I'm not arguing that one way or the other, as I have no idea. I imagine that duct tape will hurt when it is removed and be rather sweaty, but I don't know of any research that shows that it is better or worse in the long-term than whatever counts as 'manufactured' binders.

The cass report disagrees with you VS. Many countries are moving away from the affirmation model. As I have said it appears that surgery has no impact on suicide figures. But because there has been little follow up or analysis its impossible to show benefit or harm.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49344152.amp