Are young people turning gay?

Lathyrus

This is a question that I have asked before but I’ll ask it again.

When there is a dissonance between a persons body and the image of themselves that is in their mind, why is it that the course of action advocated is to change the body?

To bind it, to cut it, to suppress its natural functions, to change it by chemicals and surgery.

Why is the thinking that the body wrong and the mind right?

What makes that the indisputable truth?

I don't know where it stands now but I remember reading in the news that the government were planning to ban conversion therapy for LGB but not for T.

However, the NHS states that if gender dysphoria is diagnosed, the only help and support proven to work is validation , gender affirming treatments and possibly surgery.

The area where there are problems is when mistakes have been made diagnosing gender dysphoria.

So more needs to be done to prevent mistakes and that is already happening as the whole system is being rebuilt from the ground up.

The only issue is where people stand while they wait far too long for help and support.

But there is no evidence that gender dysphoria is curable. I've even heard of failed shock therapy done on the NHS on the past

But until we know Glorianna that the commercial binders are less damaging than the homemade ones then advocating them as a preference, “a safer” options , is irresponsible.

I can’t go with the assertion made previously that they “must be better” simply because you can bury them.

Companies don’t produce them out of concern for transwomen, they produce and advertise them because they are profitable. They’ve done no research into what is least harmful.

Over and over again in many many products we have seen companies suppressing the harm their products do, promoting for profit what they know to be harmful, sponsoring biased research.

How can you be so sure that the commercial products are less harmful in the long term than a homemade alternative. If the commercial binder is tighter than a homemade attempt with bandages then the commercial one could be the more harmful.

You don’t know. I don’t know. Nobody knows.

Don’t you think it’s morally wrong to keep saying you do?

This is a question that I have asked before but I’ll ask it again.

When there is a dissonance between a persons body and the image of themselves that is in their mind, why is it that the course of action advocated is to change the body?

To bind it, to cut it, to suppress its natural functions, to change it by chemicals and surgery.

Why is the thinking that the body wrong and the mind right?

What makes that the indisputable truth?

Doodledog

Where did I say that criminalising things stops people doing it?

What do you think I meant when I said It is virtually impossible to stop any sort of behaviour. Laws, punishments, social pressure - none of these things will stop people from doing what they want to do, if they want to do it badly enough.?

I'd be interested to hear how that could be misunderstood, even by the most determined.

Always interesting when someone posts half a comment. You also said but there are ways to make that more difficult, such as by making it a criminal offence to provide binders, in the same way as it is an offence to sell alcohol to children, or to sell certain drugs to anyone. Of course that doesn't prevent the sale of drugs and booze by criminals, but it flags up that it is not acceptable, and the illegality will deter the law-abiding

But of course that doesn't quite fit in with the "Who wants to make anything criminal". stance.
So you have a problem with girls who don't want to have breasts they are developing, they are ashamed of them. Why not make things much worse for them by making it illegal to sell them a binder? Then not only can they feel ashamed of their breasts they can feel guilty about the binder they bought. Or they could use bandages and duct-tape. All the instructions are on-line!

Yes it is irresponsible Doodledog that any child should be encouraged to do this, or given the impression that there's a 'safe' way of doing so, without firstly doing everything possible to try and ascertain why they want to do so in the first place.

Mollygo

This is why we can't have nice things.
You are part of the answer to that VS.

I've never called them "safe"

Have you not? Doesn’t recommending using something or approving of its use mean you think its safe?

Show me where I have ever done that

Or just stop saying untrue things

Up to you

My post above was to Smileless.

This is why we can't have nice things.
You are part of the answer to that VS.

I've never called them "safe"

Have you not? Doesn’t recommending using something or approving of its use mean you think its safe?

Of course it is, but we won't get a sensible response.

The question should not be which method of binding is preferable, but why a child wants to stop herself from becoming a woman in the first place. Is it fear of being 'grown up', a reaction to misogyny, or is she one of the 0.4%* who are estimated to have gender dysmorphia, or something else entirely?

To leap to advice about how to bind breasts before ascertaining the reason for wanting to seems to be putting the cart before the horse, and to do so with the express lack of knowledge of her parents is surely irresponsible.

*(source www.newportacademy.com/resources/restoring-families/gender-dysphoria-in-children/)

I don't know if I'm reading in the right tone but today's comments are definitely sounding in my head like a playground argument between 10 year olds

This is why we can't have nice things

Or decent politicians

I've just got no Llamas for all this drama

Mollygo

So now you are saying that binders should not be promoted as safe. Hurray!

I've never called them "safe"

You know that though

There are lots of things not being used for the purpose for which they're intended and as a result cause harm Glorianny, so asking anyone who believes that binders should be illegal if duct tape and bandages should be illegal too is pointless.

Sorry - that should say that I don't know anyone who believes that criminalising things has no impact .

I do wish we had an edit button.

I wouldn't dream of telling Glorianny what she thinks, but I don't know anyone who doesn't believe that criminalising things has no impact. Of course it won't stop crime - but I didn't say that, did I?

Pretending that I did was just another attempt at a 'gotcha', with a chance to be insulting thrown in.

Criminalising things doesn’t stop people doing it.

Aha! Now I understand you.
So we should not criminalise knife carrying, drug dealing, shooting, murdering babies, promoting something as safe or safer without proof, etc. because it doesn’t stop it happening.

It makes it an acknowledged wrongdoing for which you can be punished.

But you don’t believe that.

Glorianny

Doodledog

Which bit of my post do you find ‘ridiculous’?

That making something illegal deters (not stops) law-abiding people? That criminals will do it anyway? Or that there is nothing that can be done to stop people doing something if they really want to do it?

If you could remain civil in your answer it would be appreciated. Disagree by all means, but I don’t know what is ‘ridiculous’ about any of that.

That criminalising anything stops people using it. Ever heard of prohibition? Never worked. The drugs policies in this country aren't working. people who use drugs are criminalised but that doesn't stop them using. Rich kids go to rehab, poor kids go to prison, where there are more drugs available than anywhere else.
But you never answered my question if binders were illegal could you make bandages and duct tape illegal too? Because that is what has and would be used.

I’ve just been reading the Covid thread where people make all kinds of assertions without any actual knowledge.

We’ve read that this n here that without binders children will become seriously depressed, deeply anxious, commit suicide. With no figures or research to back up that statement. It’s just what someone believes.

That they will use duct tape, sellotape and bind too tightly with bandages and stuff. Based on seeing peopleon uTube doing it, But again no research or figures to show how many are copying that. It’s just what someone believes is happening.

Then we’re told that to spend money on a commercial binder is “safer” but no evidence to back that up. Just what someone believes “has to be better”. I’m reminded of companies that persuaded mothers that milk powder they bought had to be better than breast. It’s the same mentality that’s so easy to exploit.

What I would like to see to persuade me is some evidence. Personally I don’t place much value on belief. “People can believe five impossible things before breakfast”.

PS, just to help you out - 'deter' doesn't mean the same as 'prevent'.

Where did I say that criminalising things stops people doing it?

What do you think I meant when I said It is virtually impossible to stop any sort of behaviour. Laws, punishments, social pressure - none of these things will stop people from doing what they want to do, if they want to do it badly enough.?

I'd be interested to hear how that could be misunderstood, even by the most determined.

Doodledog

Which bit of my post do you find ‘ridiculous’?

That making something illegal deters (not stops) law-abiding people? That criminals will do it anyway? Or that there is nothing that can be done to stop people doing something if they really want to do it?

If you could remain civil in your answer it would be appreciated. Disagree by all means, but I don’t know what is ‘ridiculous’ about any of that.

That criminalising anything stops people using it. Ever heard of prohibition? Never worked. The drugs policies in this country aren't working. people who use drugs are criminalised but that doesn't stop them using. Rich kids go to rehab, poor kids go to prison, where there are more drugs available than anywhere else.
But you never answered my question if binders were illegal could you make bandages and duct tape illegal too? Because that is what has and would be used.

So now you are saying that binders should not be promoted as safe. Hurray!

Mollygo

VS so you are still saying that binders should be promoted as safe. And you work with children.
As you are so fond of saying
Oh dear.

That's not what I said

I also said that it's definitely not my place to advise any kind of intervention to children

Listen and comfort and refer concerns

I have said it several times now

Which bit of my post do you find ‘ridiculous’?

That making something illegal deters (not stops) law-abiding people? That criminals will do it anyway? Or that there is nothing that can be done to stop people doing something if they really want to do it?

If you could remain civil in your answer it would be appreciated. Disagree by all means, but I don’t know what is ‘ridiculous’ about any of that.

Doodledog

VioletSky

Mollygo

VioletSky

But people will bind regardless, so obviously we need another solution...

"Binding" started before "binders" were created.
Another “it was already happening” excuse.
What’s your solution? Are you still saying damaging products should be promoted as safer?

I don't have a solution no.

That's why I asked

It is virtually impossible to stop any sort of behaviour. Laws, punishments, social pressure - none of these things will stop people from doing what they want to do, if they want to do it badly enough.

So no, there is no way to stop children binding; but there are ways to make that more difficult, such as by making it a criminal offence to provide binders, in the same way as it is an offence to sell alcohol to children, or to sell certain drugs to anyone. Of course that doesn't prevent the sale of drugs and booze by criminals, but it flags up that it is not acceptable, and the illegality will deter the law-abiding.

Really! That's what you believe? Of course it doesn't. There are thousands of people using illegal drugs everyday. Some of them are respectable citizens, some of them are poor addicts. Guess who gets caught and goes to prison.
It's a ridiculous analogy anyway. People were binding long before binders were commercially available and would continue to do so if they were illegal. Perhaps we could make bandages and duct tape illegal as well?

VS so you are still saying that binders should be promoted as safe. And you work with children.
As you are so fond of saying
Oh dear.

VioletSky

Mollygo

VioletSky

But people will bind regardless, so obviously we need another solution...

"Binding" started before "binders" were created.
Another “it was already happening” excuse.
What’s your solution? Are you still saying damaging products should be promoted as safer?

I don't have a solution no.

That's why I asked

It is virtually impossible to stop any sort of behaviour. Laws, punishments, social pressure - none of these things will stop people from doing what they want to do, if they want to do it badly enough.

So no, there is no way to stop children binding; but there are ways to make that more difficult, such as by making it a criminal offence to provide binders, in the same way as it is an offence to sell alcohol to children, or to sell certain drugs to anyone. Of course that doesn't prevent the sale of drugs and booze by criminals, but it flags up that it is not acceptable, and the illegality will deter the law-abiding.