Petition : *Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex*

I'm sorry if it offends anyone, but it could save a life for the biological sex to be on the medical notes.

Exactly.

The whole situation of pretending that people can be the opposite sex, or no sex at all, is completely ridiculous.

Yes of course there are detrimental effects from taking opposite sex hormones. I don't know how well these are explained to people or whether they take it in, in their longing to 'change sex'.

I would have thought if a female person was designated male in their medical notes they would first have had to have had a hysterectomy and mastectomy with bottom surgery too?

No, clearly not.
That was in USA and I believe the situation in the UK is the same - the sex signifier on a patient's record will be changed on request.

Even if surgery had been done, that doesn't make the person male. It makes them a female who has had surgery.

My friend is happily married to a woman and living their best life, childless and regretful about that, but otherwise happy.

I don't understand everything. But the story about the man losing his baby made me so sad because it could have been avoided if the facts were on the notes or if the man had received adequate biological knowledge of the female reproductive system to understand the mechanics of conception, pregnancy, labour and birth.

Rosie51

Every time this thread updates I think it will be VS providing a link to the studies she has read. And every time I'm disappointed. Do you intend to share the studies or not VS? It seems so odd to mention them but then to keep them secret.

I have already said

The link I posted will tell you the relevant studies and a brief summary of their findings. Some studies are accessible and some have articles about them

Or you could join an intersectional feminist group where there are women with full access and the education to explain it all to you

Intersectional feminists are lovely people

What is the trans distinction?

OAU, I'm sorry if I came across as anything but sympathetic to your friend. I can absolutely see that it must have been (still is?) a very hard time. I was only asking as the baby thing makes no sense to me, but I wasn't suggesting that it needs to make sense to me - it's not my life. I hope your friend is ok now.

Yes, and I probably would be too if I was taking male hormones while still having periods! This is a real person with a real dilemma and real issues. At age 4o I experienced the biological clock ticking and desperately wanted another child (my husband didn't) and for a time I felt quite disrupted by that longing, so I for one know how powerful our female hormones can be. Add to those, doses of testosterone and other medications and you probably have a battle going on, mentally and physically, literally a torment.

I think my friend is very honest about their struggles and if it were possible to live an easier life, I'm sure they would choose to. They live as a man because that's how they identify- and because the NHS provided drugs to make it impossible to tell any different.

I think it's probably sensible to keep the trans distinction so that people can access the right help, support and medical treatment

I'm not sure how trans people feel about that and it's probably their choice not mine

Every time this thread updates I think it will be VS providing a link to the studies she has read. And every time I'm disappointed. Do you intend to share the studies or not VS? It seems so odd to mention them but then to keep them secret.

OAU I agree with you. I am not in favour of records being altered retrospectively for a number of reasons, and the ones you cite are among them.

Your friend sounds very troubled. To want to be a man, but also want to bear a child, while not wanting to be pregnant is a real mess, isn't it? It seems (to me) contradictory, as the ability to bear children is the ultimate female attribute, so wanting to keep that but also be a man doesn't compute for me. Did your friend say what it was about being a man that she wanted? None of my business, I know, but it's interesting.

I'm honestly flabbergasted lol

But I shouldn't be

VioletSky

Illiteracy haven't done anything to you doodledog

I even tried to extend olive branches

We both know that

Illiteracy?

Olive branch? You PM'd me once. I don't think it would do you any favours to go into the detail, but go ahead if you want to.

I am not saying you have done anything to me, but nor have I done anything to you. This exchange is rather embarrassing, really.

We disagree about trans issues. I do try to be polite and respectful of others' opinions, including yours, even when we disagree, but when people twist my words and get nasty with me, I will fight back - I'm only human.

Ok no I'll reword that. A friend who lives as a man but was born female told me that the drugs they take do have an increased risk of womb cancers. My friend was so scared of the risk and so disturbed by their period which still came every month- despite taking huge amounts of Testosterone and other medications. My friend was told to have a hysterectomy to make it go away, but couldn't bear to lose fertility. Wanted to have a child, yet didn't want to be pregnant. It was a real dilemma. They said if they ever became pregnant, they would stop taking the male hormones and nurture the pregnancy. To not have known or realised, would have been devastating.

Trans people do suffer so much. I don't know if they are all at similar risks because of the medications they take, but I do know that for medical purposes it should be obvious in case of emergency. What if they are unconscious and cannot advocate for themselves? I'm sorry if it offends anyone, but it could save a life for the biological sex to be on the medical notes. What if a Transman had an Ectopic Pregnancy? (Hard to spot even in a woman living as a woman)

How awful, but totally unavoidable. I don't understand though. I would have thought if a female person was designated male in their medical notes they would first have had to have had a hysterectomy and mastectomy with bottom surgery too?

No, OAU, there is no requirement for anything at all to have happened. Self-ID means that a man simply has to say he is a woman and lo! Anyone disputing that is transphobic and discriminatory etc.

I don't know about this case - was this person in possession of cognitive faculties, enough to know about the pregnancy and let the hospital know? If so, surely there has to be some responsibility for patients to disclose these things. If an overweight man signs in as male, why would a triage nurse even consider pregnancy? On another thread people are arguing about boys being asked if they might be pregnant before getting X rays. It is bonkers, but I suppose it would avoid this sort of thing. I was asked if I might be pregnant when I had my first Covid jab. I was 62, and gorgeous though I am, I doubt I could be mistaken for childbearing age. The nurse doing the jab said with a sigh that these days they have to cover themselves for every eventuality or risk being sued.

Illiteracy haven't done anything to you doodledog

I even tried to extend olive branches

We both know that

FarNorth

A situation where a baby died, in part because a female person was designated 'male' in her medical notes.

metro.co.uk/2019/05/20/pregnant-transgender-mans-baby-died-because-nurse-didnt-realize-he-was-in-labor-9613972/

How awful, but totally unavoidable. I don't understand though. I would have thought if a female person was designated male in their medical notes they would first have had to have had a hysterectomy and mastectomy with bottom surgery too?

I would also have thought that in many cases it must be necessary to take hormones to live as a gender you weren't biologically born as? If so, I would have thought they would also carry risks and should be obvious on the patients medical notes.

It's so sad when it could have been avoided with honesty and transparency. Also, anyone living as a man but procreating with a man needs to have the facts of life explaining to them, so they understand what happens in labour. They could then advocate for themselves in a transparent way.

No one is saying they can't live as they choose, but there needs to be some honesty and transparency in the medical notes and some education .

No, not as many as you would expect, which is probably because they would be massively interdisciplinary, and also because people in universities are afraid to get involved. This is why I was asking which discipline VS's articles came under.

Doodledog

growstuff

To be fair, that could be applied to pretty much any topic

No, it couldn't. Most serious subjects have academic, peer-reviewed articles written about them. That article claims that there aren't that many about trans issues.

According to VS, there are academic articles on trans issues, too. In any event, whether that is the case or not, their absence or otherwise doesn't mean that the principles being discussed are not equally applicable to other subjects that boil down to differences of opinion. You could find as many articles on economics, history and human behaviour as you like, but people will still hold differing views on politics. Similarly with climate change - there are countless peer reviewed articles out there, but no real consensus.

Also, what 'that article claims' is neither here nor there, really.

But not as many as you might expect on a serious issue.

Even academics are using social media more than is usual for other academics.

I do have access to some subscription sites for academic articles and searched for articles about "transexuality", "gender critical", etc. It's noticeable that there aren't many, compared with such fascinating (?) topics such as glycoprotein analysis or modelling of tumour-oncolytic viruses interactions.

Rosie51

Goodness I didn't think I could be clearer.

No, we have all been very clear. Ironic, given that the discussion has turned to tactical communication, isn't it?

VioletSky

Honestly I came into theses discussions very respectful and its taken far more than most would put up with to lose that respect

Some of the things said to me are beyond vile, especially when its followed me to other topics..

I would still give back respect if it were recieved I'm a very patient person

VS I could say the same. Look at Glorianny's post to me on this very thread. And that follows years of being told that I am a bigot, that my views are akin to those of the KKK, that my professional abilities are in doubt, that I am lying, and many many more.

One of my first posts on here was on a trans thread, and I was naive enough to ask why it wouldn't make sense to allow children of both sexes to do what they wanted without telling them that 'that's for girls' or whatever, and that similar approaches in adulthood would remove at least some of the requests to transition, and protect children from unnecessary intervention. The response was rude, patronising and totally unnecessary. Had it not been, I may have taken a different view, but we'll never know. As it was, I was basically told to F Off and Find Out - the FIFO approach of a bad teacher - so I did. And what I found convinced me that self-ID and constant capitulation to the demands of the trans lobby would result in the very things that it has done - men in women's jails, more and more instances of men attacking women in 'safe' spaces, the language being ever more restricted, and people being attacked physically and mentally for speaking out.

I do have respect for the views of others, and I do support the right of transpeople to live their best lives without agreeing that they can change sex. But after so long having everything I say twisted, any tiny slip met with a GOTCHA!, posts ignored, questions unanswered, and insults like the ones above, I will sometimes fight back.

Goodness I didn't think I could be clearer.

Am baffled

VS 13.06 today I've read many of the actual studies
All we're asking is for you to point us to the actual studies you've read, so we can see if we read them the same as you.

Again what was written!

Again what?

VioletSky

According to me what?

According to VS, there are academic articles on trans issues, too.