Petition : *Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex*

oops yes I missed out the word not. This petition is not about accepting or not accepting anyone who is trans. Thanks FarNorth for pointing out my typo.

Doodledog, what a superb summary.

I never said that this thread was started by those who believe that females can become males and vice versa. It has been hijacked, as so many threads these days are, by those who are preoccupied with the idea that sex can be changed.
Fortunately I don't have a horse in this race. I was trained as a scientist but common sense is quite enough. Boys are boys and girls are girls. You may choose to live as whatever you fancy but you can't change biology.

Fleurpepper

My last comment on this thread will be to share this beautiful song. In Spanish... about a daughter who is singing about her father-mother. Her total acceptance and support for the father who gave her a good life, until he decided that he truly wanted to be a woman. Carolina has two mothers now- and she is totally accepting of that. Why does it bother YOU?

youtu.be/egxfuVHszaY

It doesn't bother me either. You seem to be missing the point quite spectacularly, which always happens on these threads. They go something like this:

GC Posters - We are not transphobic, we just don't think that TWAW

TransAllies - But you want to deny transpeople their human rights!!!

GCPs - Not at all. We are supportive of transpeople - but we don't believe they can change sex. That does not impinge on their Human Rights.

TAs - But you generalise! You are prejudiced and that could lead to discrimination (or something similar but garbled).

GCPs - No. In fact we make a point of differentiating between TRAs and 'ordinary transpeople. We are happy for people to live their best lives however they see fit. It's just that it is impossible to change sex.

TAs - If you think that you must racist, anti-semitic and homophobic, and some of you probably eat babies.

GCPs - No. We really aren't, and we don't - some of us are vegetarian. But we can't pretend that TWAW, as it is impossible to change sex.

TAs - Racist, sexist, anti-semitic, discriminatory, prejudiced baby-eating TRANSPHOBES!!!!😡😡

A typo, Smileless?

Smileless2012

This petition is about accepting or not accepting anyone who is trans Fleur.

No it's not!

We are often told that 'gender critical' people are missing the point because sex & gender are two different things.

Yet no-one ever explains why a change of gender should also be treated as if it is a change of sex.

And I really don't understand why anyone objects to clarification of the law to say that the word 'sex' means biological sex.

This petition is about accepting or not accepting anyone who is trans Fleur.

It doesn’t bother me. Why would it?

My last comment on this thread will be to share this beautiful song. In Spanish... about a daughter who is singing about her father-mother. Her total acceptance and support for the father who gave her a good life, until he decided that he truly wanted to be a woman. Carolina has two mothers now- and she is totally accepting of that. Why does it bother YOU?

youtu.be/egxfuVHszaY

Esspee

I have signed and am totally sick of gransnet being taken over by those who think that anyone born a male or female can opt to change that. It is biologically impossible. Let's get back to the real world.

This thread was NOT started by

'those who think anyone born a male or a femal can opt to change that'

was it? au contraire. So who is taking over gransnet with their opinions?

Some of us have countered that we would not sign and politely gave reasons why. Why are ou accusing us of 'taking over?'

Personally I am happy to discuss the issues, try to be polite, give arguments, ideas, povs. But I do wonder why some object so much to the concept of choice. How does it affect you that much? How does it change your life? What is your horse in this race?

Please peddle your opinions on the matter, Blossoming? I am asking for them. This thread would be as good a place as any .

Please go and peddle your opinions where they are asked for.

I seem to have missed this in the Gransnet guidelines. What a strange comment to make in a forum.

Mmm less than 1% of the population in any area. Not exactly a popular demand then.

The petition has only been active for one day, so far.

M0nica

The transgender people may kow but what about the medical staff in an emergency, or a specialist reading the casenotes.

Will they always say what their sex, as distinct to their gender is when asked?

Anyone going to doctor's with severe condition where gender is key, will not hesitate to explain. And in an emergency, a doctor will soon work it out, in most cases. Where do you stop?

I have been criticised for making some sort of link between transgender, and mixed race ethnicity. Because sometimes it is obvious, and sometimes, it is not. Our grand-daughter was not diagnosed properly as a baby, due to assumptions by medical staff that her blonde hair and blue eyes indicate Caucasian/European race. It took weeks for them to say, well, we would normally know what the problem is, but it can't be that because whe is white European on both parents' sides. Because she is massively mixed race, but it just does not 'show' in her features. African, Indian, Indonesian. When daughter explained, bingo, diagnosis done.

And the question I have asked recently about transgender, in most cases, it does 'show' - very rare case like my niece that no-one would ever know- until examination of genital apparatus where it would be clear that this was constructed from the male parts. If she was a nurse, a teacher, a carer (as she is), a police woman, a fire woman, whatever- no-one would ever know, unless she chose to disclose.

Same for my GC- they are much much more mixed race than most- where it shows. In their case, you would never ever ever guess. Stereotypes are just that, nonsense. Like discrimination. Be it on race, religion, sexual orientation or trans choice.

In some places, and in some parts of the world, in some times in history- some groups have been reviled, demonised, and some people brain-washed to be genuinely scared, and or disgusted by them. And looking back or from afar, we watch aghast at their treatment.

I see no reason why the perception of transgender is any different. And yes, I am fully aware that some of you disagree.

Glorianny

FarNorth

Darker colouring on the map shows higher percentages of the population who have signed.
Not surprisingly, higher in Scotland where ScotGov hopes to impose self-identification of sex very soon.

petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=623243

Mmm less than 1% of the population in any area. Not exactly a popular demand then.

The total number has increased by 50% since I signed earlier today. Give it a chance before posting half-baked conclusions?

I never know if petitions like this make a difference or not, and I know that the fact that you have to put details of name and postcode puts people off. Also, much depends on whether they are picked up by people with large social networks who are prepared to share. Overall, I doubt that they are very representative of the strength of feeling for any issue, but it is worth a try.

I signed one I was certain was doomed to failure (not to do with trans issues), but was asked to do so by a refuge charity I support and I was surprised to learn that not only was it debated in parliament when Priti Patel was Home Secretary but that it succeeded in its aims - you never know.

In the real world the midwife sees a penis and declares the baby a boy. In the absence of a penis the baby is declared a girl. It really is that simple for the huge majority of births. To quote Margaret Mead "that is the way it is in most species".
There is always a tiny minority of abnormalities but overwhelmingly it is just that simple.
I'm not discussing how people feel, just the facts.
I don't want to upset you Caleo, clearly I know nothing about your circumstances nor is it anyone's business but your own, but it really is as simple as we are born male or female and nothing can change this.

FarNorth

Darker colouring on the map shows higher percentages of the population who have signed.
Not surprisingly, higher in Scotland where ScotGov hopes to impose self-identification of sex very soon.

petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=623243

Mmm less than 1% of the population in any area. Not exactly a popular demand then.

Like it or not, we are defined by our bodies not what goes on in our heads. Born male....always male...ditto female.

FarNorth

Glorianny if a medical record is factually correct it wouldn't matter what confusion might be created by the patient saying a number of things like "I'm trans" "I'm a man" "I did a pregnancy test" "I'm not female".

Given the public statements of some trans people e.g. India Willoughby saying "I am biologically female" and "I have a cervix" it's perfectly possible that a distressed patient would make confusing statements about themself.

If the medical staff are to disregard the sex signifier on all records and regard everyone as possibly female & equally possibly male, there is no point in that signifier being there at all.

What happens then, however, if a test is being done where the result found is fine for a male but dangerous for a female, or vice versa?

Can you give me an example of any such test FarNorth?

The patient's notes are largely irrelevant. I spent hours in many different A&E depts with my mum. On no occasion were her notes brought out. We gave a basic medical history to the first people we spoke to (in my mum's case it was long and complicated) and they treated her from that. Even after several weeks in hospital her notes hadn't been completely read by the medical staff. When she developed a complication and I was able to tell them some history relevant to it the junior doctor practically jumped for joy and rushed off. Presumably he was able to update his more senior colleagues.

This man was the victim of staff assumptions. Stop trying to attribute blame to him or excuse the staff who didn't listen to him in order to use this terrible mistake to suit your personal predilections. It shows a real lack of respect.

Esspee. I mean I agree with you that allocation of sex feels like a matter of common sense, but I don't believe this intuition is correct.

Despite the scientific finding may be counter-intuitive I believe allocation of sex is a matter for scientific investigation, not common sense.

Caleo sorry I wasn't clear.
I was actually quoting myself in connection with my reply to you.

Sex is real and immutable. Sex based protections are important, nobody should be discriminated against for their sex. Sex is easily determined. When there is genetic material left at the scene of a crime, it goes for DNA testing. That test can identify whether it was a male or female that left it, and can even match it to an individual if they have a sample to compare it to. They never ever get the sex wrong. That isn't because they've been incredibly lucky but because the science works.
Some people have a gender identity, that can be anything they like. Eddie Izzard in an interview with Joe Rogan stated that he is in boy mode for acting parts, girl mode for most of his private and political life. When asked how he achieves this he replied he slips from one to the other by for example, removing high heels and putting on flats, which is just stereotype endorsement.

Darker colouring on the map shows higher percentages of the population who have signed.
Not surprisingly, higher in Scotland where ScotGov hopes to impose self-identification of sex very soon.

petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=623243

Caleo

Esspee, it seems common sense to me too. However biological sex is an occasion for science despite it may be counter intuitive.

I'm sorry Caleo I don't understand that. I suspect a predictive text error - always happening to me. 😄