Petition : *Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex*

There are male and female skeletons and male and female chromosomes. There are also people who are born intersex. Then there are also those who identify with a sex that is not there biological sex, so have chosen to change their appearance with surgery or hormones. All of that is truth.

It's not truth. It's all you know currently. Do you never expect anyone to discover more, or do you just think you know everything we will ever know?

I'm just interested because it seems to me that as most of the authorised channels plainly exhibit tendencies towards the sort of discrimination hate crime stems from, it would be very difficult to collect any sort of figures from them. The police for example are known to be racist, misogynistic and transphobic, so it is highly likely that a lot of people will not report to them. So what you seem to be saying is that the personal experiences reported have no value because they haven't been processed properly. But surely even if you discount some of the reported incidents the increase is worrying?

I'm just pondering to myself. If someone can have a whole new identity and erase their previous one what happens in cases of security clearance especially DV security clearance?

Yes. I don’t take any report or research at face value without questioning who commissioned it, who carried it our, what where the criteria and methods, who does it advantage/disadvantage.

Not the Government, not stophateuk, not the Milk Marketing Board, if it still exists.

Follow the money
Follow the agenda
Even follow the need to win an argument regardless 😬

Lathyrus

I did say a range of research and evidence.

I suppose I mean disinterested and factual.

That report you’ve given me seems to rely heavily on speculation of what might be happening and reporting in emotive language. That always causes me doubt.
And obviously with a predetermined agenda.

I wouldn’t discount what they say but I would need research and evidence from other more neutral sources before I gave it credence.

As I said the “less likely to commit abuse” can’t be validly researched at all because of past methods of recording crime.

I wonder would you apply the same considerations to their report on Racism? www.stophateuk.org/about-hate-crime/racism-in-the-uk/

I agree with all of that, OAU.

I am deeply uneasy about official records being altered retrospectively unless there has been an error, or in the case of things like official pardons being issues post-mortem. I don't mean only for transpeople, but for everyone.

They are not my statistics. Rape crisis states that 98 % of sexual offences are committed by men. I wonder if this is the problem that people don't realise the offending rates.

There are male and female skeletons and male and female chromosomes. There are also people who are born intersex. Then there are also those who identify with a sex that is not there biological sex, so have chosen to change their appearance with surgery or hormones. All of that is truth.

If the truth was put on medical records there would be no margin for error and make the Dr's jobs easier. In A and E when there is so much pressure, it could be easy for a mistake to be made if the truth is not obvious because it has been disguised by a name change and possibly surgery or hormones and also by dressing differently. They could be helping themselves and saving a life by putting the truth out there. In the case of the transman whose baby died, he could have saved his child's life if he had lived more truthfully and been open about his origins. Some may say it's his right not to and yes- but with every choice there are consequences.

I don't feel there is any need for people to be horrible to others. It's better if people just look at the facts in a non emotional way.

Sorry I was referring to a previous post there about women sex offenders.
I think in terms of murder they worked out that a trans person ( I dont think they differentiated between transmen and transwomen which I would have thought might have been useful) had between a two hundred thousand and five hundred thousand chance of being murdered in comparison to a one in one hundred thousand chance for a man or maybe both sexes but werent trans. Obviously these figures are a nightmare to interpret for a variety of reasons. But we should be very careful about the messages we send particularly to young people with gender dysphoria

But they knew she was trans, so had changed her name. Why couldn't they have asked for the original name and run a check on that?
Because they believed it would be discriminatory.

It’s a no win situation at the moment.
There’s the nobody would know group
The asking for proof would be offensive to . . . group
Arguing against
-using the wrong pronouns, because that’s offensive to some trans
-asking for birth sex to be recorded on documents, because that’s offensive to some trans, whatever they look like or say they are.
-excluding males from female toilets because that’s offensive, or dangerous, or whatever to some trans
etc.
I’m waiting for a solution that would protect trans without removing protection from females that won’t immediately be jumped on as anti-trans.

Incidentally, I don't think your figures are correct.

No, I'm not. What are you reading?

You gave figures comparing murders of trans people with those of women killed by men, but those figures are meaningless without the total number of transwomen and cis women.

If you are talking about sexual abuse of children growstuff the figures are I think 99 % Male, 1 % female in terms of offenders.
The last figures I saw for violent sexual assault not on children were either 93% or 97% Male.

Galaxy

If you want to look at figures for most serious violent crimes, Lathyruus I think they are available. My recollection is that 2 women a week are murdered by men and that in the last 8 years 1 transwoman has been murdered in the UK. I think the analysis showed that transwomen had a lower rate of murder than natal men but you would need to double check this. Obviously I understand that violent crime is not just about the most serious crimes but it a discussion that in my view has been highly irresponsible. I think it was channel 4 that did a fact check on the statistics.

What's the ratio of women to transwomen?

I think they based it on the percentage FP from what I remember. It's quite complex really because men are more likely to be victims of murder than women as well.

Galaxy

It wasnt a female crime and its absolutely appallingly cruel to say that it was.

I never suggested it was!

What I'm saying is that the refuge could have allowed in a violent female sex abuser (there are some!). For some reason which wasn't just to do with a name change due to transitioning, this person was able to use an alias and it wasn't picked up.

As transwomen are a relatively very small number- you can't compare those figures. What is the %?

If you want to look at figures for most serious violent crimes, Lathyruus I think they are available. My recollection is that 2 women a week are murdered by men and that in the last 8 years 1 transwoman has been murdered in the UK. I think the analysis showed that transwomen had a lower rate of murder than natal men but you would need to double check this. Obviously I understand that violent crime is not just about the most serious crimes but it a discussion that in my view has been highly irresponsible. I think it was channel 4 that did a fact check on the statistics.

I did say a range of research and evidence.

I suppose I mean disinterested and factual.

That report you’ve given me seems to rely heavily on speculation of what might be happening and reporting in emotive language. That always causes me doubt.
And obviously with a predetermined agenda.

I wouldn’t discount what they say but I would need research and evidence from other more neutral sources before I gave it credence.

As I said the “less likely to commit abuse” can’t be validly researched at all because of past methods of recording crime.

Lathyrus

Fleurpepper

We should protect all people from bad, malevolent people- of any sex. And we should be protecting trans people too, because they are much more victims of violence and abuse than most.

I’m sorry Fleur but I don’t know if that is true. I accept it is your concern but we don’t, to my knowledge, have the range of research or statistics to back that up.

Neither do we know if people identifying as trans are more or less likely to commit abuse. Any research into that at the=moment has been rendered invalid by recording crimes by trans persons as male or female crimes.

I really don’t think anyone has said anything like “who cares if they are exposed to bullying - or worse”.

All of this needs investigation and preventative actions put in place so that everyone can be treated fairly, so that everyone can live without fear.

It’s a worry to me that there is a resistance to this happening.

Actually we do know some figures. We know trans attacks are increasing. We know figures are probably much higher because transpeople often fail to report.
www.stophateuk.org/about-hate-crime/transgender-hate/

It wasnt a female crime and its absolutely appallingly cruel to say that it was.

Lathyrus

growstuff

Lathyrus

It wasn’t fake ID but a new ID as a transwoman. So impossible for the Refuge to run any check on her ID as a male offender.

Surely everyone can see this is one issue that has to be addressed.

But they knew she was trans, so had changed her name. Why couldn't they have asked for the original name and run a check on that?

Because they believed it would be discriminatory?

It’s why we need absolute clarification on these issues.

Do you know that?

I don't know what checks are done when somebody goes to a refuge. It wasn't a case that the male name had been changed to a female one. A completely false name was being used.

DBS checks only take a few days these days. I had one done at the beginning of this year.

This person was using a female name in 2018, when the first crime was committed (the case can be Googled) and she was put on the sex offender register, so it was a case of changing the name from one female name to another, presumably with the intention to defraud.

A violent, abusive woman could have done the same.

growstuff

Lathyrus

It wasn’t fake ID but a new ID as a transwoman. So impossible for the Refuge to run any check on her ID as a male offender.

Surely everyone can see this is one issue that has to be addressed.

But they knew she was trans, so had changed her name. Why couldn't they have asked for the original name and run a check on that?

Because they believed it would be discriminatory?

It’s why we need absolute clarification on these issues.

And because they didnt use the exemptions of the equality act. If the legal action to provide female only services (a law that already exists but hey ho refuges have always been hard fought for) succeeds then we can make progress.