Healthcare. Is this he thin edge of the wedge?

If they're working privately, they can't work for the NHS at the same time

Yes they can.
They work their contracted hours, fulfil their duties to the NHS and what they do outside their contracted hours is surely their own business.

I've not come across that with GPs.

Are you saying we should go back to the old days when doctors should be on call 24/7?

growstuff

Callistemon21

The rich probably pay anyway for private treatment and jump the queue

I'm not sure if jumping the queue is the right term.

The private health sector exists anyway and if someone has a procedure done privately they are not jumping an NHS queue. In fact, they are not adding to the NHS queue because they don't go on the list.

I am "in the queue" for two procedures. The queue here for joint replacement is about 4 years.
If I do go privately I'm not jumping the NHS queue, I'm removing myself from it to avoid years of pain.
I hope I'll hear soon but am not optimistic.

We're not wealthy, these procedures would be paid for out of retirement savings which could be spent on something else which others might consider essential.

Yes, they are jumping the queue Callistemon. There is a limited number of doctors. If they're working privately, they can't work for the NHS at the same time. That's what's happening with GP surgeries in this area and it happens with consultants' lists too.

So you think they should not be allowed to work for the NHS and privately?

In other words, they should not be allowed to work part-time hours.
Is that legal?

growstuff

Urmstongran

Actually not a bad idea to charge for food whilst in hospital! Even a nominal sum of £1 a day would help the coffers as in-patients would be eating at home anyway. Probably get told now it would be too bureaucratic. Seems most ideas seem to get labelled that way these days.

Not if the food is anything like I've experienced!

Last time I was in hospital my partner was sent off to the onsite M & S Simply Food to buy me something to eat. I was starving after having fasted 18 hours and there was nothing on the menu I could eat.

I did the same.
I was our days in hospital a ew months ago and asked my family to bring food in, or I sent them to the shop to get something
I found hospital food terrible so no way would I pay or it.

Most GPs who have reduced their hours do so because if they are in a GP partnership they reach the maximum government pension threshold at about age 50, and it’s just not financially worth their while to continue working full time.a major influence is that they are also exhausted by the demands of the job - it’s an unpopular choice for young doctors now because it’s an absolute grind. I don’t know any GPs who have gone into private work on the side, but I’m sure a minority will do, it’s no doubt much less stressful.
I think where we differ is that having worked in the system for many years, I know that the vast majority of people who do both NHS and private work are honest, they don’t game the system to benefit private patients. The system isn’t going to change, private work will always exist, there will always be people who are willing and able to pay, and as long as they don’t do so at the expense of NHS patients I can live with that - particularly as I know that few consultants would work full time for the NHS otherwise, particularly in specialties like Orthopaedics and General Surgery where there are so many other options open to them.

Casdon I accept that point (maybe). However, not in the case of my local GPs. Until recently, they were all working nearly full-time for the NHS, but have now set up private practices and have cut their NHS hours right down. I have a friend, who is also a GP and works locally. She's furious with them because it just means more work for those who won't jump ship.

I'm not sure about consultants either. We know a consultant paediatric surgeon, who also works full-time for the NHS. His department is short-staffed and they can't find replacements, but there are fellow consultants who work privately. It doesn't pay that much more apparently, but it's less stress and they can choose their hours. If that option weren't available or if the working conditions in the NHS were better, some of them would stick with the NHS.

However you look at it, people who pay are jumping the queue. It's the one real advantage to private healthcare and people do it because the NHS is under so much pressure.

growstuff

Callistemon21

The rich probably pay anyway for private treatment and jump the queue

I'm not sure if jumping the queue is the right term.

The private health sector exists anyway and if someone has a procedure done privately they are not jumping an NHS queue. In fact, they are not adding to the NHS queue because they don't go on the list.

I am "in the queue" for two procedures. The queue here for joint replacement is about 4 years.
If I do go privately I'm not jumping the NHS queue, I'm removing myself from it to avoid years of pain.
I hope I'll hear soon but am not optimistic.

We're not wealthy, these procedures would be paid for out of retirement savings which could be spent on something else which others might consider essential.

Yes, they are jumping the queue Callistemon. There is a limited number of doctors. If they're working privately, they can't work for the NHS at the same time. That's what's happening with GP surgeries in this area and it happens with consultants' lists too.

It depends how you define jumping the queue. If a consultant works 4 days for the NHS, and one day privately, it’s a moot point as to whether if there was a complete embargo on private work he or she would offer that one day to the NHS. Most probably wouldn’t, because there are plenty of other avenues open to them which pay. Medical insurance claims, medico-legal, agency work, physician to a sports club, occupational health for a company, etc.etc.
It’s far too simplistic to assume that work which is currently done privately would benefit NHS patients because the capacity would somehow belong to the NHS otherwise. The reality is it will never happen.

We need to be vocal in supporting the nhs and demanding proper funding. We need to pressure our politicians to fund social care effectively. Not to give the funding to the nhs, history teaches us it will be absorbed into into budget, with l.a. Social care ever the poor relation.
I’m emotionally raw and exhausted because of my husband’s recent death . Our local cancer specialist hospital, the Christie, treated him like a private patient. If that’s our baseline. His consultant and specialist nurses responded to any phone calls. Clinics were busy, his treatment sometimes delayed because of a crisis, it was busy but compassionate professional and levels of skill, research superb
Our GP was wonderful. I called in for routine bloods last week, she saw me in reception, came over, talked with me for 30 min d, hugged me as I went off for bloods.
The nhs is Alice. It needs us to pressure politicians to fund it

Well said Doodledog.

Callistemon21

^The rich probably pay anyway for private treatment and jump the queue^

I'm not sure if jumping the queue is the right term.

The private health sector exists anyway and if someone has a procedure done privately they are not jumping an NHS queue. In fact, they are not adding to the NHS queue because they don't go on the list.

I am "in the queue" for two procedures. The queue here for joint replacement is about 4 years.
If I do go privately I'm not jumping the NHS queue, I'm removing myself from it to avoid years of pain.
I hope I'll hear soon but am not optimistic.

We're not wealthy, these procedures would be paid for out of retirement savings which could be spent on something else which others might consider essential.

Yes, they are jumping the queue Callistemon. There is a limited number of doctors. If they're working privately, they can't work for the NHS at the same time. That's what's happening with GP surgeries in this area and it happens with consultants' lists too.

. . . those who shout 'nut we PAID NI all our lives',,,yes, indeed but it is not enough to pay pensions, pay for care homes, hospitals, doctors, and sll the calls on the NHS ...it did not keep up with costs and unexpected longevity. The government actuaries were sadly not making provision for this and all the calls that are on the NHS now .............

I don't think people 'shout' in the rather petulant way you suggest - they may point out that fact, which is not the same thing at all. You are right that there is not enough to cover all the things you mention, but governments have a choice. They could increase taxes and also increase the level of cover. They could introduce a defined NI scheme payable by everyone over 18. They could rejig current spending plans on things like HS2. Or they could carry on letting the NHS that people have paid into wither and die, whilst those who can afford it go private.

Telling people in the rather sneering way you have just done that they have not paid enough, and implying that they have no right to point out that they have made decades of contributions might explain why you have been pilloried. All everyday citizens can do is pay what we are asked for, and it is up to governments to ask for more if they need it, in accordance with their party's philosophy about who should pay most.

Joseanne

I don't have knowledge of the NHS as I have never used it (except for GP and A & E) but I sort of agree that some of the private investigations are wasteful. My experience was that if you went to see a consultant privately let's say about your bowels, he would also then that very day refer you to his gynae mate colleague in the next room and between them they would request every possible unnecessary blood test and scan. A bit like a full MOT.
On the other hand, I can understand how beneficial that is because if every possible angle is thoroughly investigated there and then there will be no room for error. The NHS could never afford to operate in this manner for each and every patient.

As a matter of fact, that's exactly what I've had in the past. I get a very thorough review every year (apart from during lockdown). My diabetes was originally diagnosed when I went for an appointment for a bad chest infection.

The only time the NHS has ever let me down is when a GP missed my breast cancer, despite the fact that I knew something was wrong.

My only complaint is about GP waiting times - and I don't blame the GPs for that. On the other hand, if I could afford it, I could queue jump and visit one of the numerous private GP practices which are springing up in this area. Just by coincidence (ahem), they're the same GPs who used to work in the local practices, who now are short-staffed - I wonder why!

paddyanne, Urm is correct. I heard this on the news in BBC Radio Scotland yesterday on the way to work and it was mentioned again today on the way home.

ALANaV. That makes such good sense to me. How on earth to make such changes here though?! Government short term thinking makes it impossible to imagine.

there should be a requirement to pay a health insurance as I did in France. My late husband and I paid E185 a month to cover treatment in and out of hospital £25 each doctor visit (AND our doctor still visited at home !!!!)...from the E25 E2 was refunded to our bank account from the Health Service (CPAM) everything but highly specialised care was provided. 3 major ops for cancer FREE (all cancer treatment is free) My husband was given a prescription for a riser recliner which would have cost £850. Treatment never stopped during the height of the pandemic, Hospitals and doctors were still keeping face to face appointments. EVERYTHING was provided .....on one occasion after a long hospital stay I said to reception 'I would like to make a donation' she said YOU DO NOT give money ...we do not have to collect for items (I E new scanner, whatever, like the NHS sometimes does)....she said Our government provides everything we need for the hospital and the health service ......... I say this, and I worked for the NHS before I retired. so YES ...we should pay an amount compatible with our disposable income. As in France, those on no or very little income are exempt and covered by a scheme called CMU (but only if you are a French national or take French citizenship. I am pilloried for saying paying is a good idea........but as in life in general, you get what you pay for, and those who shout 'nut we PAID NI all our lives',,,yes, indeed but it is not enough to pay pensions, pay for care homes, hospitals, doctors, and sll the calls on the NHS ...it did not keep up with costs and unexpected longevity. The government actuaries were sadly not making provision for this and all the calls that are on the NHS now .............

I used to have my care through a USAF hospital on a base here in the UK. My ex was US military. Care was free but food was charged for...amount was dependent on rank of the military member. I thought it a good idea. After all you have to pay for food at home.

I don't have knowledge of the NHS as I have never used it (except for GP and A & E) but I sort of agree that some of the private investigations are wasteful. My experience was that if you went to see a consultant privately let's say about your bowels, he would also then that very day refer you to his gynae mate colleague in the next room and between them they would request every possible unnecessary blood test and scan. A bit like a full MOT.
On the other hand, I can understand how beneficial that is because if every possible angle is thoroughly investigated there and then there will be no room for error. The NHS could never afford to operate in this manner for each and every patient.

Its a ludicrous idea - those who can afford it tend to use private healthcare anyway, thus taking pressure off the NHS.

grandtanteJE65

Well most countries do have a two tier health care service, after all.

Why should people in the highest income and tax bracket get their health care entirely free of charge?

I find it entirely reasonable that a free health service should provide health care for those (probably most of the population) who cannot possibly afford to pay for it themselves.

Those who can, should do so, in whole or in part in the same way as I feel their children should be in private schools, not in government funded ones.

I really don't think you can be serious about schools.

Many people who can afford private schools for their children choose them anyway. Why make the situation worse?

Surely it would be better to resource schools, so that parents don't feel a need to look beyond the state system. And, yes, if people are honest about their tax, the wealthier are paying more anyway.

The rich probably pay anyway for private treatment and jump the queue

I'm not sure if jumping the queue is the right term.

The private health sector exists anyway and if someone has a procedure done privately they are not jumping an NHS queue. In fact, they are not adding to the NHS queue because they don't go on the list.

I am "in the queue" for two procedures. The queue here for joint replacement is about 4 years.
If I do go privately I'm not jumping the NHS queue, I'm removing myself from it to avoid years of pain.
I hope I'll hear soon but am not optimistic.

We're not wealthy, these procedures would be paid for out of retirement savings which could be spent on something else which others might consider essential.

Joseanne

I think there is some misconception that private medical insurance does not cover cancer treatment. I know ours definitely does because when we queried the increase in monthly payments they said it was because the group as a whole had been making a lot of claims for very expensive treatment.

It’s not a misconception Joseanne. Most insurance companies if they offer it, charge extra for cancer cover, and most don’t cover all aspects of treatment, or cover if you have previously had cancer or have ongoing issues resulting from treatment. This is the MacMillan guide which explains in a bit more detail.

www.macmillan.org.uk/cancer-information-and-support/impacts-of-cancer/insurance-and-cancer

No, I do NOT think it's a good idea. The rich probably pay anyway for private treatment and jump the queue. How would you define wealthy. There are already plans to dismantle the free bus passes for over 60's and heating allowances and make over-60's pay national insurance again (I resent all 3 of these measures), so why should you pay to stay in hospital.

I think there is some misconception that private medical insurance does not cover cancer treatment. I know ours definitely does because when we queried the increase in monthly payments they said it was because the group as a whole had been making a lot of claims for very expensive treatment.

Why should people in the highest income and tax bracket get their health care entirely free of charge?

They pay more tax.
I see no reason why healthcare should be denied to someone who has paid a lot of tax.

Tax loopholes should be closed and those avoiding paying tax should be found and made to pay their dues.

widgeon3 is there a Royal Voluntary Service near you. They often offer transport for hospital appointments.
At my most recent hip op the Consultant told me that him and all his colleagues had private medical insurance. That gave me pause for thought!!

Most wealthy people have private health insurance BUT it never child birth, geriatric care or cancer