Healthcare. Is this he thin edge of the wedge?

sazz1

Well we agree on one thing maddyone. There is no way I would have gone home even if it was 22 hours. But she's my neighbour and a good friend so I didn't say anything but tried not to look shocked when she told me the next day.

You’ve answered my point from a different thread sazz1 but we understand what we’re talking about, it’s just that others won’t. I totally understand why it was difficult for you to comment when you’re friend told you, but I think I might have expressed an opinion. I think anyone who won’t wait at a hospital for eight hours with a child with suspected meningitis is very irresponsible, because despite the long wait, the parent and child were at least in a hospital where should the child have taken a turn for the worse suddenly, then they were in the right place. The GP Practice is never the right place for a child with suspected meningitis because they will simply send for an ambulance or send the parent to hospital, whichever is the quicker. The GP will understand the urgency of the situation and act accordingly. Your friend was extremely irresponsible to take her child home and leave her child without any prospect of any treatment overnight, because a more serious situation might easily have developed. And I also think your friend is out of order to complain about a lack of care because she absented herself and her child from the place where she would have received care. Had a very serious situation developed, then the parent would have been responsible for anything that transpired, but doubtless she would have blamed everyone else except herself.

Just to add, a GP's FT contract is 8 sessions a week, that would normally translate into 4 long days, so a GP working 3 days would be on a 75% contract, however it's possible that this could translate into a FT contract if they are doing morning, afternoon and evening sessions (and they are probably doing their paperwork at home in their own time).

I think there's a huge misunderstanding, not only about the length of training, the level of debt that most doctors have when they start to earn and the subsequent lack of autonomy they have over their lives whist they are continuing their specialist training which usually continues for 10+ years post graduation. Their basic starting pay is not much more than that of a teacher or nurse. It is a very stressful career and there are many more highly paid careers that would enable people to have a better work/life balance. I don't think the answer to the shortage of doctors is to make their life more difficult or punitive, nor is it about paying them more or insisting they "pay their debt to society" by restrictive contracts of employment. How's about finding out why so many doctors (especially GPs) are demoralised and try to fix some of those issues to they enjoy their jobs more.

I should have also added the number of Scottish students at Scottish universities are capped due to the funding supplied by the Scottish Government.

Apologies I should have made it clear I was talking about Scotland where the fees are heavily subsidised. For Scotland the fees are £1820 throughout your degree and £9250 for the rest of the UK. Fees in Scotland are only for home students.

Well we agree on one thing maddyone. There is no way I would have gone home even if it was 22 hours. But she's my neighbour and a good friend so I didn't say anything but tried not to look shocked when she told me the next day.

Unfortunately there is a lot of ignorance around about doctors, the training of doctors, and GPs.

stewaris where on earth did you get the completely incorrect information from that the government pays the university fees of doctors? Medical students pay their own university fees of £9000 per year for four years. The fourth year and subsequent years of training the student doctors do not pay fees as they are working for no pay on the wards alongside qualified doctors. Why do you think that the government pays their fees? They don’t!

stewaris I don’t think they get their training free these days.
I am prepared to be corrected.

Wouldn’t be so bad if student medical school places weren’t capped. I’m sure I read that recently.
Why are they?
Space, tuition etc I suppose when I think about it but surely somehow, now so many young doctors are electing to work part time, numbers ought to be ‘uncapped’ somehow?

We have three doctors in our family. One works in a hospital and works normal full time hours. Two work in GP practices and work three days a week each. One hasn't reached his 30th birthday yet and the other is early to mid 30's. My sister also works in a GP practice and says all/nearly all the GPs are part time. This is endemic throughout Scotland, I can't speak for the rest of the UK. I realise this is only one practice but they are earning so much money that they don't need to work full time. Personally, I feel that they should be asked/made to sign an agreement that they will work full time to pay something back to the country who pays their student fees. I realise they have expenses other than fees that they/their families have to support them but surely students like that should be made to agree to some sort of full time service to pay back the support of taxpayers. Needless to say. I have never broached this subject with any of them and I do believe that all students should have free education but they need to pay back or is that a boomer thing?

They would only do that Aveline if you were due a smear test anyway.

I remember going to the GP feeling really awful with an ear infection. That practice was receiving incentive payments for smear tests so I was given one there and then. I was a bit too unwell to protest at the time but thought it was pretty money grubbing and dubiously ethical.

And rare as hen’s teeth in some areas it seems.

Visgir1

My chum is a GP Practice manager
Every 6 months she pays a substantial amount as a Bonus payment to the Partners of the practice from Profits made.
Contracted Doctors do not get this, or other staff.

This is because GPs are not employed by the NHS as people seem to think. They are actually self employed in their practice. They ‘buy in’ to the Practice and this costs them a lot of money. When they leave they take their ‘bought in’ payments with them and another doctor agrees to buy into the Practice. The partners who buy into the Practice are given funds from the NHS to treat NHS patients or to employ salaried doctors and the Practice pays them a salary instead of them buying in. If the Practice decides to give it’s partners a bonus then that is up to them. Having said that the only person in my family who has been given a bonus most definitely is not a GP. None of the GPs I know have been given a bonus, but the Practice can manage it’s funds as it sees fit. I simply don’t think people understand that GPs are not employed by the health service, they are independently employed and can choose to work as few, or as many hours as they wish, so long as their Practice is in agreement. If all the part time GPs withdrew their services nobody would ever see a GP again! GPs are a scarce and precious resource.

I think it was the sort of meeting where those attending were supposed to consider all possibilities. No saying it was a decision. I suppose every sort of suggestion would need to be noted then ruled out following discussion.

So if the SNP have no intention of allowing the Scottish NHS to charge for treatment why were the NHS Board discussing the possibility?

We have absolutely no GP service to speak of in our town available anymore. My Health Centre even locked the surgery doors at one stage to 'safe guard patients'. Even with an appointment you had to wait in the rain whilst the receptionist sat at her desk until she deemed it time to let you in. The surgery was completely empty apart from staff. No appointments can be had for love or money, doctors seem to have vanished. I have not seen my designated GP for 6 years. I phoned for a consultation, no response. Did an econsult still waiting for that phone call 3 weeks later, still nothing.

Out of sheer desperation I found a private medical centre, within a couple of days had a face to face appointment. Blood tests done, result took a few days, diagnosed and treatment all finished in one week. I was treated with respect and a human being, not a nuisance. The doctor was caring and fully attentive to my needs, just like the old days. Yes, it was expensive but worth every penny.
Don't say I am a wealthy patient I am not because like many of you I am on the basic pension with no credits or help from anyone. Had to raise the money by selling something this time, but will put a little aside for the future each month, just in case it happens again, I have given up with GPs, they only causes stress and anxiety and for me life is too short.

The hospitals are brilliant but GPs are finished.

Are you a bit upset about something Paddyann?

Urm may be correct that it was on the BBC ..but the BBC and the press have reported a lie ...not unusual where the devolved governments are concerned particularly the Scottish government .I will repeat ,the Scottish government has NO intention of charging ANYONE for treatment on the SNHS.In fact they have said that the ethos of the NHS is free at the point of use and that is how it will stay FOR EVERYONE REGARDLESS OF WEALTH .

Now I know thats not what you want to read BUTits the truth ! After yesterdays decision by the "supreme" court (ENGLISH LAW) there will be more frequent attacks on the Scottish government in an attempt to destroy it .

Its what Westminster and the right wing press ,BBC in particular do .After all they are staffed by and lead by Tories ...or Led by DONKEYS .

The SNP IS the most left leaning party in the UK ,they show Starmer in his true blue colours

Visa girl, gp practices were forced into a business model. Partners benefit financially, just as partners in law firms do.
Nhs and other public services should be not for profit

My chum is a GP Practice manager
Every 6 months she pays a substantial amount as a Bonus payment to the Partners of the practice from Profits made.
Contracted Doctors do not get this, or other staff.

I really wouldn't mind paying £10 for a GP appointment as we have not been allowed face to face appointments since covid. Their figures for 'no shows' or 'time wasters' are apparently fantastic at the moment.

Good luck whatever you decide Callistemon21, four years is an awfully long time to wait.

Casdon

growstuff

Callistemon21

The rich probably pay anyway for private treatment and jump the queue

I'm not sure if jumping the queue is the right term.

The private health sector exists anyway and if someone has a procedure done privately they are not jumping an NHS queue. In fact, they are not adding to the NHS queue because they don't go on the list.

I am "in the queue" for two procedures. The queue here for joint replacement is about 4 years.
If I do go privately I'm not jumping the NHS queue, I'm removing myself from it to avoid years of pain.
I hope I'll hear soon but am not optimistic.

We're not wealthy, these procedures would be paid for out of retirement savings which could be spent on something else which others might consider essential.

Yes, they are jumping the queue Callistemon. There is a limited number of doctors. If they're working privately, they can't work for the NHS at the same time. That's what's happening with GP surgeries in this area and it happens with consultants' lists too.

It depends how you define jumping the queue. If a consultant works 4 days for the NHS, and one day privately, it’s a moot point as to whether if there was a complete embargo on private work he or she would offer that one day to the NHS. Most probably wouldn’t, because there are plenty of other avenues open to them which pay. Medical insurance claims, medico-legal, agency work, physician to a sports club, occupational health for a company, etc.etc.
It’s far too simplistic to assume that work which is currently done privately would benefit NHS patients because the capacity would somehow belong to the NHS otherwise. The reality is it will never happen.

Good post, Casdon

I shall investigate private treatment in the NY.
If I decide to go ahead then my name will be taken off the NHS list and someone else will move up the list.

If I don't then the consultant will see another private patient.

You cannot dictate what someone decides to do career-wise.