A boost for Brexit?

Caleo

The matter of the dispute between Growstuff and GrannyGravy is a matter of what's in the curriculum.

All curriculums , including scientific and manual skills, should ideally include history and philosophy of their particular subject. The only reason scientists aren't grounded in history and philosophy of science is lack of time and money.

Manual and low skilled work has long been viewed as having no intellectual or emotional value . This attitude must change so that manual and low skilled labour is valued according to the same criteria as other labour.

Good post Caleo

Trades folks have to do NVQ’s which are updated regularly to keep up with the latest regulations, particularly electrical and gas regs.

I really have nothing against degrees we have AC who have them.

I just think that the education system is geared to passing as opposed to all round educating.

The matter of the dispute between Growstuff and GrannyGravy is a matter of what's in the curriculum.

All curriculums , including scientific and manual skills, should ideally include history and philosophy of their particular subject. The only reason scientists aren't grounded in history and philosophy of science is lack of time and money.

Manual and low skilled work has long been viewed as having no intellectual or emotional value . This attitude must change so that manual and low skilled labour is valued according to the same criteria as other labour.

growstuff

GrannyGravy13

growstuff

people can lose their money overnight. They can't lose their education.

Unfortunately education whilst broadening minds doesn’t always pay the bills.

Attitudes really need to change, there is absolutely nothing wrong with trades they are what keep the U.K.’s toilets flushing, heating working, cars running along with general upkeeps.

I have agreed with you in the past about attitudes and I still agree, but I don't agree with capping the aspirations of young people. People who keep toilets flushing, heating working and cars running will never be in control. You are saying that those roles should be reserved for an elite.

Far from it growstuff in our circle of family and friends we have a mixture of graduates, trades people and self made millionaires.

Some of the graduates (PhD’s) whilst highly educated have little experience of life outside academia, the thought of those in government or making decisions over the general public fills me with dread. They are the first to admit that they will stay in their comfort zone of academia/research, which they excel at.

Common sense is gained by experience, thinking on your feet and realising what the world is about.

I am not a fan of the School, University, Political Researcher then MP route which is the favoured and most used route into the HoP.

Trades people are often in the higher tax bracket nowadays and extremely hard to find. My windows are being cleaned as I post, he has an enormous house, top of the range car and plenty of holidays abroad.

I just find the attitude of University is the only goal rather snobbish.

I agree cheap labour is bad business. There should be proper wages for temporary foreign workers and also resident workers.

There should be tertiary education for all. Besides education in how to think and vocational training such as medicine and law, tertiary education must include training in manual skills.

Katie59

growstuff

Katie59

Albanian mafia gangs are responsible for a lot of migrants crossing the channel in boats, many of those will have “indentured” themselves to work in the UK for the Albanians illegally.
They are responsible for a great deal of “slave” labour in the UK and Europe.

Those pesky Albanians again! I'm beginning to think we should track down some of them and use their entrepreneurial skills.

Their skill depends on violence and intimidation, betray them and you “disappear”.

Hmmm ... sounds a bit like some of our government ministers (allegedly).

Wow! Nothing like old-fashioned stereotyping!

GrannyGravy13

growstuff

GrannyGravy13

growstuff

people can lose their money overnight. They can't lose their education.

Unfortunately education whilst broadening minds doesn’t always pay the bills.

Attitudes really need to change, there is absolutely nothing wrong with trades they are what keep the U.K.’s toilets flushing, heating working, cars running along with general upkeeps.

No, I know it doesn't. I expect a graduate banker is better able to pay bills than a carpenter.

Sorry do not get what you are saying growstuff

One minute you are implying that it’s not all about money, Next you are extolling graduate bankers ?

(Not all bankers are graduates by the way)

I'm not extolling them. I'm saying that graduates can pay their bills too and most of them are in a better position to do so than non-graduates.

PS. I didn't claim that all bankers are graduates.

GrannyGravy13

growstuff

people can lose their money overnight. They can't lose their education.

Unfortunately education whilst broadening minds doesn’t always pay the bills.

Attitudes really need to change, there is absolutely nothing wrong with trades they are what keep the U.K.’s toilets flushing, heating working, cars running along with general upkeeps.

I have agreed with you in the past about attitudes and I still agree, but I don't agree with capping the aspirations of young people. People who keep toilets flushing, heating working and cars running will never be in control. You are saying that those roles should be reserved for an elite.

growstuff

GrannyGravy13

growstuff

people can lose their money overnight. They can't lose their education.

Unfortunately education whilst broadening minds doesn’t always pay the bills.

Attitudes really need to change, there is absolutely nothing wrong with trades they are what keep the U.K.’s toilets flushing, heating working, cars running along with general upkeeps.

No, I know it doesn't. I expect a graduate banker is better able to pay bills than a carpenter.

Sorry do not get what you are saying growstuff

One minute you are implying that it’s not all about money, Next you are extolling graduate bankers ?

(Not all bankers are graduates by the way)

GrannyGravy13

growstuff

people can lose their money overnight. They can't lose their education.

Unfortunately education whilst broadening minds doesn’t always pay the bills.

Attitudes really need to change, there is absolutely nothing wrong with trades they are what keep the U.K.’s toilets flushing, heating working, cars running along with general upkeeps.

No, I know it doesn't. I expect a graduate banker is better able to pay bills than a carpenter.

Dickens I have no objection to money or people producing "stuff" to make money, but I'd hate to live in a world where every single thing we did had a monetary value.

Katie59 Fri 25-Nov-22 07:12:07

There is more to life than making money, until you are broke.

Never a truer word spoken.

There is more to life than making money - but without it, in a Capitalist world, there is no life, only existence.

growstuff

people can lose their money overnight. They can't lose their education.

Unfortunately education whilst broadening minds doesn’t always pay the bills.

Attitudes really need to change, there is absolutely nothing wrong with trades they are what keep the U.K.’s toilets flushing, heating working, cars running along with general upkeeps.

growstuff

Katie59

Albanian mafia gangs are responsible for a lot of migrants crossing the channel in boats, many of those will have “indentured” themselves to work in the UK for the Albanians illegally.
They are responsible for a great deal of “slave” labour in the UK and Europe.

Those pesky Albanians again! I'm beginning to think we should track down some of them and use their entrepreneurial skills.

Their skill depends on violence and intimidation, betray them and you “disappear”.

There is more to life than making money, until you are broke.

It’s all about having a skill that others need to pay you for, it takes time to acquire the practical skill level needed. It makes no difference if you want to be a Plumber, Accountant, Hairdresser, or a Nurse it’s going to take 3 yrs, then you take further training for higher qualifications.

With nearly half the graduates not doing graduate work there is a lot wasted, going to”Uni” for a life experience when you could be training for your career is a really bad idea.

people can lose their money overnight. They can't lose their education.

Life is not just about making money.

How many decision makers (the people who control everybody's lives) started out as plumbers?

Or do you accept that only certain people can become politicians, lawyers, financiers or even techie nerds? - they're the people who ultimately control our lives and our countries.

Someone mentioned plumbing as a joke I think. In the US, a hard-working plumber with ambition can easily make well into the six figures, more than teachers, more than some medical personnel, certainly more then some middle level managers and engineers. This is exactly the problem in most first world countries, everyone thinks their children need to have a college education. There are many advantages to a college education quite a part from the money that you could make. To be truthful, most of the people who graduate from college never make the kind of money they are told they will make because they get degrees in women's studies, sociology, underwater basket weaving, etc. They are never going to make a lot of money. A good bricklayer, a really good carpenter, certainly a plumber, an electrician, all can have a better life and make much more money than many of the degreed positions a university prepares you for.

Katie59

Albanian mafia gangs are responsible for a lot of migrants crossing the channel in boats, many of those will have “indentured” themselves to work in the UK for the Albanians illegally.
They are responsible for a great deal of “slave” labour in the UK and Europe.

Those pesky Albanians again! I'm beginning to think we should track down some of them and use their entrepreneurial skills.

Saetana

I will also reiterate the fact that most people on Universal Credit are either actually working already or are unable to work - I believe the actual number of unemployed and fit to work is around 1.5 million. Well said Starmer - all the cheap Eastern European labour was pushing wages down for British workers. Obviously we still need migration for shortage professions such as doctors and nurses, but we need to start training up our own people for the relevant vacancies, pay them better, and stop the obsession with our young people going to university to the exclusion of other, far more suitable for many, paths of training and education.

In that case, the country needs massive investment in training - and I mean massive. I can't see that happening. In the 40 years I've been involved in education, there have been various initiatives for so-called non-academic young people and none has been that successful.

I hope you're going to tell the sixth formers at schools such as Eton or Westminster that they should try plumbing or care work rather than Economics.

Dinahmo

Dickens I remember the last time there were threats of tax hikes and the right wing press said that people would leave the country. It didn't happen. Some people tried but soon moved back to the UK because their families were unhappy but most people preferrred to stay because of schools and lifestyle.

There were various reasons given as to why the business-owning rich didn't leave, and family, schools and lifestyle was one of them. They have a life outside of their enterprise, and if they move to a country where they can employ workers on a low-wage, they get the culture that goes with it which is not always to their liking, nor their families'.
Of course, very large businesses can run without the owner in-situ, but that also presents problems. And then there are conglomerates participating in different markets, etc.
Life in the UK for the very wealthy is, in fact, quite pleasant, and that's why they mostly stay I think.

I will also reiterate the fact that most people on Universal Credit are either actually working already or are unable to work - I believe the actual number of unemployed and fit to work is around 1.5 million. Well said Starmer - all the cheap Eastern European labour was pushing wages down for British workers. Obviously we still need migration for shortage professions such as doctors and nurses, but we need to start training up our own people for the relevant vacancies, pay them better, and stop the obsession with our young people going to university to the exclusion of other, far more suitable for many, paths of training and education.

Dickens I remember the last time there were threats of tax hikes and the right wing press said that people would leave the country. It didn't happen. Some people tried but soon moved back to the UK because their families were unhappy but most people preferrred to stay because of schools and lifestyle.

MaizieD

^Businesses say higher wages will lead to higher prices.^

Well, they would say that, wouldn't they Dickens?

They said that about the introduction of the minimum wage...

Businesses will have to take lower profits...

Businesses will have to take lower profits...

Pre-bloody-cisely!

But so many people believe that this would make them up sticks and move elsewhere - or that passing on the cost to the consumer is the 'natural' order of things - that they won't accept an argument for higher wages. Even though many who think like this would benefit from better pay.

It's not widely known that the myth of the rich decamping elsewhere is, well, just that - a myth. Some do, of course, most don't though. But as long as people believe this, any politician advocating for higher wages - which I assume Starmer is doing - is going to be on a sticky wicket. And I'm sure the right-wing media can dream up some scary headlines to support the myth.

Albanian mafia gangs are responsible for a lot of migrants crossing the channel in boats, many of those will have “indentured” themselves to work in the UK for the Albanians illegally.
They are responsible for a great deal of “slave” labour in the UK and Europe.

MaizieD
When a billion started to become the norm I couldn’t get my head round it.
Then I read that equation and realised how huge it is.
It stuck with me.