Eddie Izzard not chosen to be Labour candidate for Sheffield Central.

Galaxy

Single sex spaces arent discriminatory they are enshrined in law. It is very easy to ensure men are not in womens prisons sport etc.

Prisons are being dealt with (as I think you know) not because of any legal action by anyone but because the position of putting transwomen into women's facilities in order to prevent them committing suicide was untenable and a purely stop gap measure.
Sport still isn't being dealt with and will never be whilst some people choose to say that black women have to medicate in order to compete. But I accept that their problems don't concern many other people. Particularly those who think the problem is transwomen and not sport for all women.

We are sorting it out for ourselves thanks though Glorianny. Every legal action is a slow move forward. Of course it's a bit of a pain in the arse but what's new.

Single sex spaces arent discriminatory they are enshrined in law. It is very easy to ensure men are not in womens prisons sport etc.

Mollygo I fully accept your views, but I certainly do not agree with them. If you fail to see the difference between accepting and agreeing with something it really isn't my fault.
If you want to imagine that transwomen are standing (or sitting) in every women's toilet waiting to attack that's up to you. If you want to keep posting details about isolated incidents and then claiming they have a link to all transwomen that is purely discriminatory and I will challenge it. Just as I would challenge anyone who said men shouldn't be involved with children because some men are paedophiles, or someone posted that all black young men should be stop and searched at will because some are involved in supplying drugs. They are all discriminatory.
If you want all female facilities they are protected by law, if the presence of transwomen would stop birth women using them. The point being that most women do not object to the presence of transwomen. I don't see why the objections of a few should outweigh the opinions of many. But even so if you want an exclusive female toilet as distinct from a women's one I would support that. Quite how that would be regulated I don't know as most toilets now have symbols and transwomen believe they are women and would use the one with the appropriate symbol. But by all means have one if you want one. I don't think it is up to me or any other person happy with things as they are to tell you how that would be regulated. Sort it out for yourself.
I will continue to believe that casting doubts on anyone's gender because of their appearance and trying to regulate or eject anyone from a facility because of their appearance can, and is, doing far more harm to most women than any transwoman has ever done, and that accepting diverse and different people in society is a basic principle of human rights.

Well said Doodledog and Galaxy.

But Volver’s words

There are a lot of people in this debate who will not accept different views or even, no views at all, and think the world is against them.

so exactly describe Glorianny’s posts, with a smidgeon of VS, I could commend her for them.

Agree with Galaxy.

You keep coming on these threads to talk down to us and tell us we are paranoid, but add zero to the discussion. I asked about Scottish politics - something you definitely know about, but you ‘decline’ to answer. You claim to be open-minded on trans issues but never venture an opinion on the subject itself - just about the posters. You are ‘cross’ or feel ‘patronised’, tell us we are subjective and have chips on our shoulders, and you do the tedious thing of listing comments reframed as insults. I am not getting into pointless discussions about what people have said in response to posts about how we have responded. If you want to say what you think about the topic or any of its tangents, crack on and join in, but sniping from the sidelines pretending to be unbiased is not discussion.

I have no chips. None whatsoever. I dont really mind if you want to 'talk' or not.

Sorry, pressed send too early because I'm so cross.

Women like me who just don't see what the fuss is about get told were gaslighting others and impeding progress. That we're patronising and condescending.

I've often thought this before, but never said it. I might get banned, who knows. Who cares. There are a lot of people in this debate who will not accept different views or even, no views at all, and think the world is against them. So other people who try to not get engaged in the interminable parade of acronyms and exclusionary language, but try to take a middle ground, are just described as condescending or some such rubbish.

This is what you always have an answer for.

We'll maybe talk again when the chip is gone from your shoulders.

Nobody here is "moving the argument on". Nobody here is impeding any progress either. How , on earth is anybody impeding progress by just saying "I'm not taking part?"ut women like me who just don't see what the fuss is about

I'm sure you all have a response. You always do.

More gaslighting. Blaming someone for responding, rather than listening to what they have to say and responding on equal terms. Avoiding expressing an opinion of your own, but at the same time belittling the opinions of others. Patronising and condescending others, but accusing them of doing that to you.

In other words, sabotaging attempts at discussion but not moving it forward in any way - in fact impeding any progress. I accept that these discussions rarely move forward very much, but at least we try, on both sides of the argument.

Glorianny
Apparently none of that matters. People don't seem too understand that blaming transpeople for the actions of a few individuals creates a culture which breeds transphobia
Who blames all transpeople for the actions of the few?
You keep saying that, but who is it you are talking about?

What can be seen on here is people blaming the few TiM whose actions harm, endanger or distress females. You and others refuse to see that.

What you also see is people pointing out what impact the actions of those TiM I mentioned above and the TRA who attack female groups in the name of supporting trans has on the public perception of transpeople and THAT is what breeds the transphobia you mention.

It doesn’t matter how you dress it up, the people causing most transphobia are the harmful TiM and the violent TRA supporters,
not the females trying to retain the rights that those TiM and their supporters, are claiming for themselves.

From that itv news report :

^"Authors found the "baseless and concerning credibility" these views had been given was "at the expense of both trans people’s civil liberties and women’s and children’s rights" in the country."

What is meant by that?
How are women's and children's rights being damaged?

"They pointed to UK hate crime statistics which show a sharp increase in transphobic crimes since 2015 – though only one in seven victims report them to an authority."

What is meant here, by hate crimes?
Are 'crimes' of misgendering or seeing stickers being counted as equivalent to physical violence?

In the same way you cant impose the belief that TWAW on me but of course you can express it. It's the same for both of us.

By imposing a belief do you mean expressing it because I am afraid that yes I can do that.

Galaxy

Wyllow I believe people cant change sex, I believe single sex spaces are protected under the equality act, this is not transphobia, it's a protected belief.

You can believe whatever you like Galaxy but your belief does not mean you are permitted to impose your beliefs on others.
And yes single sex spaces are protected by law.
Every other judgement we make about people in life is made on a gender not a sex basis. We actually know very few people's sex.

If you dont believe men can become women then we will take your right to abortion away. It's not an original threat I am afraid.

Wyllow I believe people cant change sex, I believe single sex spaces are protected under the equality act, this is not transphobia, it's a protected belief.

I think I've posted about self ID in other countries volver but it's usually ignored. I've also expressed my concern that the UK is classed with countries like Poland, Russia and Turkey for the level of transphobia and transphobic attacks www.itv.com/news/2022-01-26/uk-named-alongside-russia-in-lgbt-hate-report-due-to-transphobia
Apparently none of that matters. People don't seem too understand that blaming transpeople for the actions of a few individuals creates a culture which breeds transphobia
The politics of the right wing have always necessitated removing the very different first of all and then slowly insisting that all conform. Quite why women don't recognise the tactics I don't know. Perhaps they believe our hard won rights are set in stone instead of delicately balanced. Goodness knows the warning signs are there. Look at the US and abortion law. "Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got till its gone"

The problem with undermining realities is that I understand you feel your reality is being undermined and that is disturbing.

However this is a contentious area where different realities are being talked about. I see a proposed reality of consistency transphobia on these threads which disturbs my underlying view of the world (justice for minorities, against abusive transbullying, and the benign and decent trans people that are out there.

FarNorth

^as if people are trying to undermine reality almost.^

It's not 'almost' - they absolutely are undermining reality because 'male rapist = woman' is a lie.

In whose version of reality is ‘male rapist=woman’ anything but a lie?

as if people are trying to undermine reality almost.

It's not 'almost' - they absolutely are undermining reality because 'male rapist = woman' is a lie.

Well you always have a response Volver, is that a bad thing now.
I dont know that people are saying you are being gaslit rather that may be how we feel, I know when people tell me that someone who is a Male rapist is a woman it feels deeply uncomfortable, as if people are trying to undermine reality almost. I am not trying to be dramatic but I dont know how to describe it. I know it's not true but people keep saying it over and over again, its disconcerting.

What I said volver was
So trivial, isn't it, that absolutely any male will be able to get legal recognition, from the Scottish Government, that he is actually a woman.
And that the Labour party would want the same thing for the whole UK.
People who want this and see no problems with it are seriously deluded.

If you don't want that, then I wasn't talking about you - although your comment "just because they think "Keir doesn't know what a woman is"" does suggest you think our concerns are trivial.

In other countries, there are problems which are concealed by pretending that men are women and documenting them as such.
Also some countries which have 'self-id' have included more restrictions than the complete free-for-all that is proposed for Scotland.

I was thinking of how to answer this while I was eating my pizza, but decided that whatever I say will be minimised.

So far, on trans threads, I've been told I'm not a feminist, had somebody wonder if I have been misrepresenting myself as a woman when I'm really a man, obliquely described as deluded for believing something when I don't believe in it at all, and now that I'm being gaslighted and apparently I don't know it.

I also find myself wondering why nobody ever mentions that Self ID is already the law in about 15 countries. Maybe you have and I've missed it.

To borrow and paraphrase something that's been said a lot tonight , "Why would you do that?"

I'm sure you all have a response. You always do.

It's gaslighting on a massive scale.