At last ... a plan. Gordon Brown's constitutional review revealed

I don't think we're a colony. I think we entered the Union being told we were a partner but the Unionists today have forgotten that. We were never an equal partner though, that's true.

I also think that Brown, Starmer et al are true Unionists. They can't see why we're making a fuss. Because they are "granting" us more rights all the time. I think they are truly puzzled. But for me, the point is that we're a separate country and it doesn't matter how much they think they are giving us, we're still not independent.

Also, HoL reform would be a very good thing. If just to see Ruth Davidson's face 🤣

I think that the argument over Scottish independence, is very similar to the argument over Brexit.

Oh I'm so sorry. Now I've made this all about Scottish Independence.

I think that the argument over Scottish independence, is very similar to the argument over Brexit.

It's nothing like it at all.

The UK wanted to leave the EU because people thought it didn't have a say and was being led by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They wanted to go it alone and show the world how Britain is different (superior?) to everyone. But the UK had an equal say with everyone else and benefitted from member. We were part of the future of Europe but we wanted out.

Scottish independence is about living as a modern country in the world, not withdrawing from everything and not holding ourselves up as unique and not reliant on anybody else. Its about taking responsibility and not blaming anybody (everybody?) else when something goes wrong. Its about realising that we need other people and that the direction of travel in rUK, which is towards the right, is not for us anymore.

OK, I'm off to put away my soapbox...

Grantanow

If Starmer think H of L reform (and tinkering with public schools VAT) is the stuff of doorstep electioneering in the next GE he should think again. Most ordinary folk are far more concerned about health, the cost of living and the awful results of Brexit.

Oh, I don't know, Grantanow, I think that House of Lords reform might go down rather well; 'sell' it as 'being ruled by unelected Lords'. The 'unelected' was a hit in 2016, I'm sure it would work again

But, to be serious, this report will only be a part of Labour's manifesto offering. We don't yet know what else there will be to talk about on the doorstop.

Back again to GrannyGravy and: -"The one thing that caught my ear in a worrying way was the devolving of more powers to local authorities. Is this a get out of jail card for a Labour Government to say it wasn’t me guv it was them ?"-

But "it wasn't me guv" is exactly what the tory govnmt does now, namely give local authorities a grossly inadequate lump sum to cover all services and then when there are complaints about the state of the roads, library closures, failures in social care etc hide behind the mantra of it being up to local councils to decide how money is spent. Year after blessed year.
I much like Gordon Brown's "too many decisions affecting too many people are made by too few". Too true.

This was interesting:

There should be new, constitutionally protected social rights – like the right to health care for all based on need, not ability to pay - that reflect the current shared understanding of the minimum standards and public services that a British citizen should be guaranteed.

“But, to be serious, this report will only be a part of Labour's manifesto offering. We don't yet know what else there will be to talk about on the doorstop.”

Of course, but the hot topic in the right wing media day after day, will be constitutional reform, the rest will be overshadowed, it’s not about doorsteps.

it’s not about doorsteps.

You might not have noticed that I was responding to Grantnow, whose post was about doorsteps.

Katie59

“But, to be serious, this report will only be a part of Labour's manifesto offering. We don't yet know what else there will be to talk about on the doorstop.”

Of course, but the hot topic in the right wing media day after day, will be constitutional reform, the rest will be overshadowed, it’s not about doorsteps.

Why do you think that Katie59, I don’t think constitutional reform will be the top of the electorate’s list of priorities at all? They will be far more concerned about the economy, the NHS, social care, etc. - things that they believe will directly and immediately affect them, and the media will need to reflect that or people won’t read it.

Casdon

Katie59

“But, to be serious, this report will only be a part of Labour's manifesto offering. We don't yet know what else there will be to talk about on the doorstop.”

Of course, but the hot topic in the right wing media day after day, will be constitutional reform, the rest will be overshadowed, it’s not about doorsteps.

Why do you think that Katie59, I don’t think constitutional reform will be the top of the electorate’s list of priorities at all? They will be far more concerned about the economy, the NHS, social care, etc. - things that they believe will directly and immediately affect them, and the media will need to reflect that or people won’t read it.

Reform and PR is the biggest threat to the Tory party ever holding power again, they will fight tooth and nail and the right wing media will back them.

Katie59

Casdon

Katie59

“But, to be serious, this report will only be a part of Labour's manifesto offering. We don't yet know what else there will be to talk about on the doorstop.”

Of course, but the hot topic in the right wing media day after day, will be constitutional reform, the rest will be overshadowed, it’s not about doorsteps.

Why do you think that Katie59, I don’t think constitutional reform will be the top of the electorate’s list of priorities at all? They will be far more concerned about the economy, the NHS, social care, etc. - things that they believe will directly and immediately affect them, and the media will need to reflect that or people won’t read it.

Reform and PR is the biggest threat to the Tory party ever holding power again, they will fight tooth and nail and the right wing media will back them.

PR isn’t on the Labour agenda for the next parliament though. A high proportional of the electorate support reform to the House of Lords, so given the current system is difficult to defend, I don’t think it will be top of the electorate’s agenda, however hard the right wing press may try to make it so

I think they are much more likely to put it in the manifesto of the second parliament. The first one will be used to get things in place to ensure the second.

"Gordon Brown has now released A New Britain: Renewing our Democracy and Rebuilding our Economy – the findings of his Commission into how to repair our political system. In publishing this report, Keir Starmer is right to recognise that our broken constitutional model has held back our politicians from solving the issues that affect our country.

From abolishing the House of Lords to strengthening devolution and shutting big money donors out of our politics, Brown’s plans represent an important first blueprint for much-needed democratic renewal.

Many of the proposals that appear in the report are ideas that we have been calling for in our recent work, such as Westminster Beyond Brexit: Ending the Politics of Division, and Democracy Made in England: Where Next for English Local Government.

But any new second chamber must be fairly elected to ensure that every voter, as well as every nation, and region is appropriately represented.

The over-centralisation of power in Westminster is holding Britain back, but there is a glaring hole in the proposals for reform. Without addressing the House of Commons, the aims of the commission, to restore faith in politics and move power towards people, can only fall short.

An elected second chamber makes the need for a fairly elected Commons all the more important. But these reforms are by no means the final package. Labour has committed to consulting on these proposals and the plans they’ve set out should be seen as the start of a road to much-needed renewal – not the end."

www.electoral-reform.org.uk/brown-commission-reforms-offer-first-blueprint-for-much-needed-democratic-renewal/

I understand that Brown recommends giving PR consideration.

I still haven’t had time to read the report yet though, so I might be wrong.

Whitewavemark2

I understand that Brown recommends giving PR consideration.

I still haven’t had time to read the report yet though, so I might be wrong.

You’re right Whitewavemark - it will take a lot to get it right, so for the future not the first term. I’d envisage them starting a review which learns from experience in the devolved nations, (where the current PR system has significant pitfalls), implementing for the proposed regional devolved administrations, then consideration for parliament, it won’t be a quick fix as varian would like.

Well I am in no doubt that Labour will have the people at the heart of their policy.

This is some of what they did for us last time.

First minimum wage
14,000 extra police
Cut crime 32%
Record literacy
Peace in Ireland
Wrote off debt for poor nations
Devolution
Gift Aid
26% increase in child benefits
Winter fuel payments for elderly
36,000 extra teachers
274,000 more teaching assistants
2,200 Sure Start centres
First ever paternity leave
85,000 more NHS nurses
Record levels of numeracy
Longest period of low inflation growth since 1960
NHS Direct
Child Tax Credits
Ban on fur farming
Doubled funding for every pupil
Doubled number of apprenticeships
Free fruit for 4-6 year olds
Free breast screening for 50-70 year olds
In-patient waiting lists down half a million
Scrapped Section 28
Introduced Civil Partnerships
Right to 24 days holiday
1 million pensioners lifted out of poverty
Cleanest rivers, beaches, water and air since industrial revolution
Free nursery places
Free eye tests for over 60s
Free bus travel for over 60s
Cut long term unemployment by 75%
Heart disease deaths down 150,000
Cancer deaths down 50,000
Cut NHS waiting times by 82%
600,000 children lifted out of poverty
Banned fox hunting
Improvement to 1 million social homes
Free TV licenses to over 75s
1.8 million new jobs
3 million child trust funds
Free entry to museums and art galleries
And doubled overseas aid

(Russ Jones)

All done within 10 years.

I challenge any Tory supporter to list what the Tories have done in 12 years.

Apart from getting rid of most of that.

You are right WW2 when you point out that the last Labour government did a lot of good.

It's just a great pity that they took us into a war in Iraq. Such ammunition for the right wing press.

They have overseen the massive rise in foodbanks WWM2 usually opened by grinning Tories telling the press what a good thing FB 's are .
All the while they are pocketing megabucks of public money soemtimes ofr a pint of milk or a packet of paperclips ...not forgetting their subsidised food and drink !
Mind you the Labour MP's are just as bad

As you must know by now Paddyann I am not a Labour voter, but I do not see any evidence that Labour MPs are just as bad as the corrupt and incompetent Tories.

paddyann54

They have overseen the massive rise in foodbanks WWM2 usually opened by grinning Tories telling the press what a good thing FB 's are .
All the while they are pocketing megabucks of public money soemtimes ofr a pint of milk or a packet of paperclips ...not forgetting their subsidised food and drink !
Mind you the Labour MP's are just as bad

I’d like to see a list of Labour corruption and lies.

Something else the Tories are taking away if they can

Campaign group Republic has welcomed proposals put forward by the Labour party this morning, but have cautioned that without a codified, written constitution any changes a Labour government makes can easily be undone by a future Conservative administration.

The group has also called for everything to be put on the table, including the role of the head of state, the Privy Council and royal prerogative powers.

"Getting rid of the Lords should be a no-brainer. It's an absurdity that should have been scraped decades ago. Yet on the question of reforms at the national level this report falls short."

"Labour talks about 'entrenching' certain parts of their plan, but that makes no sense if these constitutional changes can be overturned by a simple majority in parliament."

"To entrench anything in a constitution it must be codified and only changed by referendum or a super-majority in parliament."

"We also need to see a more dramatic shift in power between government and parliament, scrapping the Privy Council and prerogative powers and empowering MPs to have more control over parliamentary business."

"Far from being a mere ceremonial body, the Privy Council is a source of excessive government power and has no place in a modern democracy."

"The British constitution is not fit for purpose, it serves those in government more than it serves the public. For that reason it's to be welcomed that Labour is opening up this debate. But the debate must go further, no part of our constitution can be off limits to serious discussion."

... but have cautioned that without a codified, written constitution any changes a Labour government makes can easily be undone by a future Conservative administration.

Who would have guessed it?

varian there is a good chance they have planned to bring in PR. First the LP must win the next election; that is not a given.

Polling now shows that currently the majority of the public would back PR. Labour members are, I believe, in support. But the bean counters may have concluded that they could not win the next election with PR in their manifesto. A majority does not make it a winning vote. With FPTP you need the majority in a very few seats, in the right place.

They will know that if they win the next election, then the party will have all the power. But after that parliament, there is the chance that with FPTP they could let the Conservatives back in. They will be weighing all these things.

They want to use the changes the paper lays out to grow the economy all over the country. They see it as giving power back to where it belongs - to the people. Someone with that mindset cannot be in favour of FPTP. Brown's groups paper tells us they want to pass power from Westminster to other parts of the UK. Once that is done only PR would stop the House of Commons, under another government, from taking that power back. Sadly, it makes strategic sense to wait. As I want my country run by it's people, not by the state or the elite, I will accept that wait.

I would be happy for them to share power after the next election. I like voted for coalition governments. The people running the Labour Party would not want that in the next government however, when they have so much to get done. But I do believe they will bring it in. They will never want a repeat of the government we have just - and still do - endure