Redistribution of wealth in the UK

Obviously the best option is the Liberal Democrats

January 2025 feels a long way away.
Kemi Badenoch might magic up some good trade deals? It is a very quiet government so far in marked contrast to the last one! Some of the problems here today should have been worked through if we are not in the middle of a major war. I am not very optimistic that government aid to Ukraine will bring about a resolution. The arms manufacturers must be making huge profits and it feels that all sides in the conflict are becoming more and more entrenched.
I don’t think that a change of government will make any difference on this issue.

I can't forgive the LibDems for selling off the Royal Mail so cheaply, varian. Nor can I forgive the LibDems for conniving at the austerity policy which has all but broken the UK and has brought the NHS to its knees. Sorry...

I'm not fully confident that Labour has the answers, but at least it is a party that feels as though the good of the country and of 'ordinary' people matter to them. Things which the tories have never seemed interested in.

I don't think they have much economic nous, but perhaps they're keeping their powder dry until they are in power.

Which I think they inevitably will be after the next GE.

CoolCoco

There are some countries which have far more equality, Scandinavian countries have higher tax rates but better pubic services, for example. That's not to say there aren't rich and poor people in those countries, but there aren't as big gaps between them.

There is a bit of a myth about the equality in Scandinavian countries.

In Norway (where I lived and worked for 12 years) two professors (emeritus) have researched this assumption and written a book.
They came to the conclusion that there are great differences in wealth which are "on a par with the differences you find in Great Britain and France, which are old class societies".
They believe the official statistics on equality are misleading. Uncertainty around the numbers makes it difficult to give clear answers about how wealth is distributed, but one of the professors believes that the value of "big fortunes" are underestimated.
According to the professors, Norwegians also do not have more egalitarian attitudes than people in other countries.

However, the way society is structured in Norway means that a huge swathe of the population have high wages. Even those who earn the least have a relatively good wage compared to other countries - cleaners, restaurant workers, etc will have a far better standard of living than their counterparts in the UK.
"Norway is heavily unionised and the vast majority of employees across a huge range of sectors belong to a trade union . Most trade unions are affiliated to a national federation, which is then usually affiliated to a main confederation of employees." (www.lifeinnorway.net).
Also education in Norway helps to eradicate inequalty - public universities in Norway offer free tuition for all students. They have a higher level of education than the European average. The housing market is overall more stable than in the UK and home ownership is high compared to other countries. This is purely anecdotal, but in the company I worked for, all the younger people were on the property ladder (including the woman who cleaned the offices) by their mid-twenties, some earlier.

So in fact, the gap between rich and poor - though not known as an exact science (too many variables) is probably as great as in the UK. It's just that the poor are not as poor as the poor in the UK!

The two professors - and colleagues - claim in this study that the richest 1% pay the least taxes! Not really a surprise though is it - we know that the ultra wealthy have ways and means of avoiding tax.

We cannot expect the economy to improve a lot until Ukraine is settled, then energy and food prices will return to normality.
At least we have a stable government let’s hope it doesn’t get worse because when there is a change of government the bills are going to be large.

What 'bills' are going to be large, Katie59?

Katie59

We cannot expect the economy to improve a lot until Ukraine is settled, then energy and food prices will return to normality.
At least we have a stable government let’s hope it doesn’t get worse because when there is a change of government the bills are going to be large.

Larger than they are already?

Do you seriously believe energy and food prices will return to pre-Ukraine levels?

Economic pressures cannot all be blamed on global factors.

And we still haven't sorted out our trading relationship with the EU...

Yes larger debts than at present, that was announced at the last budget
Food and fuel prices will not return to pre Ukraine levels but they will be lower than current.
Don’t expect any change in trading relations with EU for maybe 5 yrs. Any “ Brexit Bonus” agreements will be very limited, due to continued Covid and Ukraine disruption.

I dont see any reason to expect a quick recovery, I hope the most vulnerable are protected, the rest of us just tough it out

Katie59

We cannot expect the economy to improve a lot until Ukraine is settled, then energy and food prices will return to normality.
At least we have a stable government let’s hope it doesn’t get worse because when there is a change of government the bills are going to be large.

I don’t agree with your conclusion with regard to either the cost of living or that we have a stable government.

None of those assertions can be backed up.

Whitewavemark2

Katie59

We cannot expect the economy to improve a lot until Ukraine is settled, then energy and food prices will return to normality.
At least we have a stable government let’s hope it doesn’t get worse because when there is a change of government the bills are going to be large.

I don’t agree with your conclusion with regard to either the cost of living or that we have a stable government.

None of those assertions can be backed up.

Sunak is rather more hard line than I expected and I’m not expecting a vote of confidence so his government will survive until the next GE. Not having the continual upheaval of the Johnson/Truss era will be a refreshing change.

ronib

MaizieD

I wasn't suggesting we do a Robin Hood style mugging of the rich, and remove every penny, laughing callously.

No, but I think that that was how your teacher was trying to present it

The Labour 'squeeze the rich' was a long time ago now. Apart from talking about wealth taxes, I haven't really heard much in the way of positive redistributive policies from them lately. But perhaps they'll be a bit braver once in office.

Even with a change of government, we still have
1. The economic effects of a pandemic which lasted two years
2. The war in Ukraine which shows little signs of a fast resolution
3. The subsequent energy shortage and price hikes
These problems remain for government of whichever persuasion. The policies might have a different set of faces fronting them but the solutions will still not be easy, and the civil servants will continue to be in place.
Rather than wish for regime change on an almost continuous basis, better to ask how to solve the crisis confronting us all.

Regime change is the only way. The present govt will not solve the problems.

Dinahmo do you mean regime change with Labour or Lib Dems or Reform in power? Exactly how might the conversation go with President Putin to halt the Ukrainian war? Will President Putin be persuaded?

Are you seriously suggesting that the UK could in any way influence Putin to halt the war in Ukraine, ronib. The UK has been happily discarding any international power we had. A regime change in the UK isn't going to make any difference.

I can't see Reform taking power at all. All they'll do is split the tory vote. At the moment, with the tories 25% points behind Labour in the latest opinion poll, there isn't a great deal of tory vote to split. I can't see Labour losing much of their lead while this stagnant tory government is in power.

The most important problem to be faced is the war in Ukraine and that is more deserving of our time and emotional energy rather than continuous rumblings about a general election here. There will be a general election at some point. I don’t agree at all with the way the international community has been sucked in to the whole power politics of Russia against the rest of the world. I am sceptical that Kier Starmer will be able to do anything more than the present prime minister in resolving this issue.

ronib

The most important problem to be faced is the war in Ukraine and that is more deserving of our time and emotional energy rather than continuous rumblings about a general election here. There will be a general election at some point. I don’t agree at all with the way the international community has been sucked in to the whole power politics of Russia against the rest of the world. I am sceptical that Kier Starmer will be able to do anything more than the present prime minister in resolving this issue.

I don’t agree ronib, the war in Ukraine needs our financial, political and practical support but as it stands we are not at war, and the conflict could rumble on for years. It doesn’t need the entire political concentration of the UK government. Labour in government would likely make no difference to the approach from the UK to the Ukraine situation, but it would make a huge and welcome change to domestic politics so an election is the way forward.

Casdon of course the Ukrainian crisis does not need the entire concentration of the government. But the crisis needs resolution.

ronib

Casdon of course the Ukrainian crisis does not need the entire concentration of the government. But the crisis needs resolution.

We are not in a position to resolve it. I can't understand why you should think we are.

Are we not part of NATO? Does no one speak to each other? I don’t understand why we are so accepting of a prolonged war.

This is wrong on every level.

ronib

Are we not part of NATO? Does no one speak to each other? I don’t understand why we are so accepting of a prolonged war.

This is wrong on every level.

ronib it’s not in our gift, or the gift of NATO to resolve this conflict through warfare. The UK is a bit player, we don’t have any say directly, other than through support to Ukraine through the methods we already do - which is what the other NATO countries are doing too, we aren’t in isolation.

I don’t have the answers but I have thought for a long time that the benefit system is part of the problem.
No, I’m not suggesting it is abolished but it should be made easier for those on benefits to increase their income without losing the safety net of the system. That way they may be able to increase their employability and begin to get back to full employment gradually.
I had an employee once who didn’t want a pay rise. It would have taken her over some threshold or other so I do know that it used to happen. It may have changed.

Katie59

Yes larger debts than at present, that was announced at the last budget
Food and fuel prices will not return to pre Ukraine levels but they will be lower than current.
Don’t expect any change in trading relations with EU for maybe 5 yrs. Any “ Brexit Bonus” agreements will be very limited, due to continued Covid and Ukraine disruption.

I dont see any reason to expect a quick recovery, I hope the most vulnerable are protected, the rest of us just tough it out

Don’t expect any change in trading relations with EU for maybe 5 yrs. Any “ Brexit Bonus” agreements will be very limited, due to continued Covid and Ukraine disruption.

"Although UK exports to the EU have now recovered to pre-pandemic levels, analysis of trading data shows the number of relationships between buyers and sellers tumbled by a third after the introduction of the EU-UK trade deal in January 2021." (Peter Foster - FINANCIAL TIMES - APRIL 26 2022)

It may not matter to many - but to our small businesses, that were booming prior to Brexit - it matters a great deal. Increased paperwork, logistics and cost has forced quite a few out of the market altogether.

Covid and Ukraine will naturally have an effect on trade - but, there is evidence that the long term effects of Brexit on EU trade is "worrying" especially as there is also evidence that future growth comes from those smaller companies.

Fortunately, Sunak has taken a more conciliatory approach to the EU - at least by comparison to Johnson and Truss.

TBH I think the "Brexit Bonus" is going to take a lot longer than 5 years to materialise, certainly for a lot of ordinary people.

As Rees-Mogg predicted in his usual languid fashion... "benefits of Brexit won't be apparent for 50 years".

And the largest pro-Brexit demographic (over 60s) will all be dead by then.

UK's International Trade Secretary, Kemi Badenoch, has written to her US counterpart, complaining that America's green subsidies are protectionist.

www.ft.com/content/21fe9241-5e1b-409e-8d6e-98f2e4d06793

Apparently, Badenoch thinks the UK should get a special deal. The arrogance and self-delusion is astonishing.

OK! The UK has now managed to p*$$ off the EU and the US. Who's next?

The US is much more interested in the EU these days, the UKs credibility declined after Brexit, they think it was a pretty stupid move.

It's not surprising that most of the world thinks that Brexit was a pretty stupid move.

On the run up to the fraudulent referendum of 2016, the only foreign politicians who supported "Leave" were Donald Trump, the French fascist Marine le Pen and Vladimir Putin.

If I had, at that time, been even slightly tempted to vote leave that fact in itself would have sounded warning bells.

Perhaps it was not reported as it should have been by the Torygraph, The Express, The Daily Mail and The Sun.

Did anyone really think that Trump, Putin and Marine le Pen had the best interests of the UK at heart?