Do the pros of sending tanks to Ukraine outweigh the cons?

If Ukraine loses this war then who is next on their radar?

How heartening to read that one of the poorest countries in the eu has a get go attitude. www.politico.eu/article/bulgaria-volodymyr-zelenskyy-kiril-petkov-poorest-country-eu-ukraine/

The US seems to be keeping Ukraine at arms length, supplying defensive weapons only and restricting how they are used. They have prohibited their use beyond the occupied land, until the US changes that policy it’s hard to see Germany or anyone else escalating to a large scale offensive campaign.

Despite their apparent support for Ukraine they don’t want to get into a large scale confrontation with Russia. They may well see a cease fire and rebuild Ukraine within NATO as a better long term objective than getting into a war with a maniac.

The original question was

Do the pros of sending tanks to Ukraine outweigh the cons?

In my view, yes, certainly. Putin is an aggressor. He has invaded a sovereign country and smashed it to bits. Hitler did the same. Appeasement doesn’t work, if it did , WW2 would never have happened because Neville Chamberlain would have secured peace in our time after his negotiations with Hitler. Putin is an aggressive bully and he will not negotiate unless he is given a large slice of Ukraine. That may be acceptable to the British public, and the populations of other countries in the EU or America, or elsewhere, but I very much doubt it would be acceptable to the Ukrainians. It wouldn’t be acceptable to British people if an aggressive bully invaded Britain and would only negotiate when given a large slice of Britain would it? Which bit would be given away? The bit you live in or the bit I live in? No! You cannot appease a bully.

Katie59

Latest report from Davos summit, Germany is willing to send tanks if the US also sends tanks, it seems to me very sensible that if they are going to escalate the war it does not want to be “half cocked”.
No response from the US yet.

I don’t think it’s the availability or the cost of sending tanks, it’s the message implied to Putin that the US, in particular, is acting as an aggressor.
There’s many layers to this issue, not immediately apparent to onlookers.
Someone posted a while back about Crimea being Russia once - well it was part of the USSR, known a ‘Russia’ but Crimea was never part of modern Russia.

We think it is part of Ukraine but Russia has declared Crimea and the rest of the occupied territory as part of Russia

Declaring something does not necessarily make it true.
Even invading and occupying a country does not capture the hearts and minds of its citizens.

Thanks MOnica and MaizieD for your contributions. No one wants war and a negotiated peace plan would of course be the best outcome. That would need Putin to acknowledge war crimes and recognise he’s the aggressor not the victim. There’s no evidence to suggest that’s remotely possible.

War in Europe, another deranged dictator

Latest report from Davos summit, Germany is willing to send tanks if the US also sends tanks, it seems to me very sensible that if they are going to escalate the war it does not want to be “half cocked”.
No response from the US yet.

A negotiated solution would involve Ukraine giving up some of it’s land and any people that stayed there.
Why should they?
Would the UK give up part of England or Wales for example because another country invaded?
No. Thought not.

M0nica

Putin wants to rebuild Russia as it was in 1989. Ruling everywhere from the Baltic to the Pacific. Lands that were given their independence in that year.

He started small supporting rebellions in remote areas of Georgia, and Moldavia, recently he has supported the government in Belorus. It is now a client state. he has done all this with one eye on NATO, to see how it has reacted - and, he saw that NATO was doing nothing.

Then in 2014, he invaded the Crimea and supported pro-russian groups in the Donbas region. Once again he had got away with it. We faced a future of Putin gradually re-occupying and recreating the old Soviet Union and creating another military state. That is why NATO had to say, thus far and no further.

Remember the poem by Martin Niemoller?

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

Replace communist, socialist, jew, with Ukraine, Moldavia, Poland, Romania etc.

That is what will happen if we do not support Ukraine.

Exactly!

I found this on Facebook

Ukrainian poet Oleksandr Oles (1878–1944) wrote a poem "Remember" (other title "Europe was silent") in 1931. I tried to translate this poem from Ukrainian into English to share it with those who are now discovering Ukrainian authors and some pages from the past (and present) of Ukraine.

REMEMBER
by Oleksandr Oles
translated by Iryna Tsilyk

When tortured Ukraine was struggling for life
And fighting adversaries vicious and violent,
It needed support in its boundless strife,
But Europe was silent.

When fearless Ukraine was waning in battle,
The rivers of blood spilled around to find
Some help for unequal and resolute struggle,
But Europe was blind.

When weakened Ukraine was reined by force
To labor for tyranny cruel and giant,
Then even the mute rocks were heard, but of course
Old Europe was silent.

When hungry Ukraine was harvesting wheat
To feed the insatiable butcher regardless
Of those who wanted to live and to eat,
Old Europe was heartless.

When wounded Ukraine lost hope and faith,
Turned into a mass grave and desolate island,
Then even true evil showed its gentle face,
But Europe was silent.

22.08.1931

We cannot let this happen again.

Once Ukraine is occupied by Russia, other countries once part of the Russian empire will soon follow.

I find it very strange that those who would be up in arms if the British were to try to reoccupy their empire can be so laid back when it is ex-subject states of other ruthless repressive regimes like Russia or China.

Yes, there is a price to be paid in deaths, and destruction. but unless we are all prepared to accept the rule of anyone who wants to take over our country, or anyone elses country, and rule us with an oppressive and violent way (think Iran, North Korea, Afghanistan) and some other of the tinpot dictatorships around the world) then there must be a red line where we say, thus far and no further.

Ukraine was invaded by a neighbour who had no reason or just cause to invade them. If we do not stand up for other countries when they are attacked, we might as well invite the Russians to occupy the UK, with all that would entail.

The economic effects of Ukraine are being felt in Russia but
probably no more than the rest of Europe, in terms of military cost both sides are using mostly cold war stockpiles. In terms of technology, they are being denied from the west but China is quite capable of sending what they need.

It seems the US is saying the only option is for Germany to send Tanks and other heavy armaments, Germany is very wary of getting involved in a major war.

I chose this link because it is among the most cautious of those on the economic effects of sanctions on Russia, and from a left leaning paper. Articles from other sources consider the sanctions to be even more effective.
www.theguardian.com/business/2022/oct/08/behind-moscows-bluster-sanctions-are-making-russia-suffer

M0nica

Katie59 That’s irrelevant to Russia the real reason is a secure corridor to Crimea which they see as strategically very important.

Why do they need a secure corridor to Crimea? It is part of Ukraine

We think it is part of Ukraine but Russia has declared Crimea and the rest of the occupied territory as part of Russia. Polititians can say what they like in support of Ukraine and drip feed mainly defensive weapons, the military will be very worried about a much larger campaign to drive Russia back.

Sanctions are having little effect on Russia, it would be a mistake to underestimate their willingness to fight hard to retain what they occupy.

Katie59 That’s irrelevant to Russia the real reason is a secure corridor to Crimea which they see as strategically very important.

Why do they need a secure corridor to Crimea? It is part of Ukraine

President Zelenski is also a Jew, so there is no way he could legitimately be accused of being a Nazi.

President Zelensky is a Russian speaking Ukrainian. There is no way he would have targeted his own people,.

Nazification was a total red herring, the original half baked attempt was to dominate Ukraine and prevent it from joining NATO, they did not expect Ukraine to fight and 100 thousand troops would be enough.
They are now reinforcing the land they occupy, liberating the Donbas is a face saving position for Putin, it’s going to take a massive effort to drive them back, will NATO provide enough weapons to do that?.

I couldn’t believe your post Normandygirl you’ve swallowed all of Putin’s lies lock stock and barrel.
That dear Mr Putin who only wants to right the wrongs! 😡

That’s irrelevant to Russia the real reason is a secure corridor to Crimea which they see as strategically very important.

Oh dear, Katie59, and there's us being told that it's all about preventing the nazification of Ukraine and protecting the Russian speakers from being forced to drop their language. And that Putin never intended to take Kyiv...

M0nica

Normandygirl Given that Russia has the Wagner Group, which has a long and terrible history of atrocitys in Chechnya as well as in Ukraine, you stand on very shaky ground.

nanna8 From everything I have read the Russian element in the Ukranian population have rallied to the Ukrainian flag and are opposed to the Russian invasion. They see themselves, first and foremost as citizens of Ukraine.

That’s irrelevant to Russia the real reason is a secure corridor to Crimea which they see as strategically very important.
They dont fight by our rules, war is war, civilians get in the way that’s tough, they just dont care

Normandygirl Given that Russia has the Wagner Group, which has a long and terrible history of atrocitys in Chechnya as well as in Ukraine, you stand on very shaky ground.

nanna8 From everything I have read the Russian element in the Ukranian population have rallied to the Ukrainian flag and are opposed to the Russian invasion. They see themselves, first and foremost as citizens of Ukraine.

I'll be more succinct, then, nanna8.

How would you feel if it happened to you?

MaizieD

nanna8

I still wonder what is the take on all the thousands of Russians that live there. Are they happy about their mother country moving in ? Are they ashamed of Putin’s aggression ? Some of them seem to welcome the Russian troops but perhaps they are scared to do otherwise? Do we really know what they want ?

Tell you what, nanna8, we'll send an army out to invade Australia and take it back under our direct control. After all, it was part of our Empire and a very large proportion of its population is of British descent, so I'm sure they'd be happy to lose their sovereignty and independence in order to rebuild the British Empire...

We'll torture and murder your civilians and raze your cities to the ground. Steal your children to re-educate them to be good little Britishers...

Of course, you all speak English, too, so that's another justification for invading you...

Hmm....

Hate to say it but that is the most stupid, irrelevant post I have ever read on here.Nothing whatsoever to do with my query. Just unpleasant and rude.