Do the pros of sending tanks to Ukraine outweigh the cons?

M0nica

Putin wants to rebuild Russia as it was in 1989. Ruling everywhere from the Baltic to the Pacific. Lands that were given their independence in that year.

He started small supporting rebellions in remote areas of Georgia, and Moldavia, recently he has supported the government in Belorus. It is now a client state. he has done all this with one eye on NATO, to see how it has reacted - and, he saw that NATO was doing nothing.

Then in 2014, he invaded the Crimea and supported pro-russian groups in the Donbas region. Once again he had got away with it. We faced a future of Putin gradually re-occupying and recreating the old Soviet Union and creating another military state. That is why NATO had to say, thus far and no further.

Remember the poem by Martin Niemoller?

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

Replace communist, socialist, jew, with Ukraine, Moldavia, Poland, Romania etc.

That is what will happen if we do not support Ukraine.

Well considering the Ukrainian government has integrated the Nazi ASOV battalion. that carried out mass genocide and ethnic cleansing of Russian speaking people, into their mainstream army, I would say that the world has much more to fear from Ukraine than it does Russia.

Russia is not capable of sustaining the war for years. We have seen just how badly trained and equipped their soldies are and how incompetent their generals are, their equipment is decades behind NATOs. The Russian army has been humiliated in this war.

The Russian economy has been badly hit by this war and sanctions. If the Russians were any good they would have overrun Ukraine in days. they didn't and nearly a year later still haven't.

The nuclear threat is two-sided and just as there was no use of nuclear weapons in the Cold War, when the danger was much higher, so it is very unlikely now. NATO has nuclear weapons as well. No one is likely to use the huge area destruction bombs, like those used on Japan. They will use battlefield nuclear devices, just as terrible in effect, but across a much smaller area.

In Syria the Russians used chemical and biological bombs, easier and cheaper. I agree Putin is capable of anything, but the probabilities are against the use of nuclear.

M0nica

Before WW2, there were people who felt we should appease Germany to keep out of the war, even though he too was just such an aggressor as Putin.

Thank goodness we didn't.

The world order is not comparable to 1940, Britain went into defend France against Hitler, it took 5 more years, 50million lives and nuclear weapons win WW2. NATO could have defended Ukraine but the world order has changed, the threat of nuclear war is a big risk, Russia is quite capable of sustaining the war for years, there has got to be a peace agreement.

As I recall it, Putin's only offer over Christmas was a temporary truce for one or two days to allow their soldiers to observe their Christmas. And it was probably a ploy so they could re-group.
We have to support Ukraine and simply cannot let Putin do what he likes. If he wins where does he invade next. We all hate war but sometimes it's vital to stand up to dictators.
Do you think we should not have fought the first and second world wars,?
Where would we be now if we hadn't?

Taking that argument that would justify the British taking back the Republic of Ireland. The Britishnes of much of Ireland cannot be denied and the majority have English as there mother tongue.

(Replying to Monica), if said neighbours claimed that my living rooms had been an integral part of their house for centuries and they were trying to right what they saw as old wrongs, and if I thought the police would be powerless to do anything about it short of destroying the whole house, I think I might be willing to discuss their taking back a small part of it on condition that they undertook to leave the rest alone.

I don’t think the clear boundaries are the point. Breaking treaties is very wrong and the Russian regime is very terrible. But the Russianness of parts of Ukraine, esp Kiev of course can’t be airbrushed out of the picture.

winterwhite It has been made clear that the only negotiations on offer are a complete Russian withdrawal from Ukraine.

What alternative is there?

If Russia is ramping up its war efforts - and it is, then Ukraine needs the armaments to resist it.

Remember Ukraine was a peaceful country, with clear internationally recognised borders. Russia had no argument with it or dispute, Yet it chose unilaterally to march into te country and try and take it over.

If your next door neighbour knocked a hole in the wall and promptly moved in and added your living rooms to their house. Would you agree to negotiate and let them have half the space or would you say that they had to leave completely and block the doorway, even if you had to call the police to force them out?

Could somebody remind me of the response to Putin’s offer to negotiate that was in the news over Christmas?

Understood that this was assumed to be insincere or that nothing would come of it, but if no effort has been made but instead arrangements are put in place to send more sophisticated armaments to Ukraine I don’t call that a good look. But I may have missed something.

And if the way is now clear for Poland and Finland to send their superior tanks why have they not said they are ready to do so?

Before WW2, there were people who felt we should appease Germany to keep out of the war, even though he too was just such an aggressor as Putin.

Thank goodness we didn't.

Oreo I’m with you 👍. If we ignored the Russian invasion and murdering Putin won, where would he move onto next ? He’s a madman and needs to be conquered pdq.

Would those who are against the war just allow another country to overcome them and take their land ?

Thankyou Monica I thought I had stepped into an alternative universe.

Zelenski wants peace but not at any price.He wants Russians out of his country.Wouldn’t you? The rapes and killings of private citizens including kids by Russian soldiers who have been brutal beyond belief is staggering.
Forget feeling naively sorry for Russian soldiers!
Putin doesn’t want peace at all and won’t be satisfied until all of Ukraine belongs to Russia.
After Ukraine, what next?
All these posters who say they are ‘against war’ I mean FGS who isn’t? But sometimes dictators have to be stood up to or worse happens.

Normandygirl Ukraine was a country with no argument with Russia and clear borders.

In 2014, with no justification. Russia marched in, annexed part of the country - and nobody did anything, so this year it repeated the operation, this time planning to take over the whole country, and this time Ukraine fought back and NATO countries have supported Ukraine.

Are you suggesting that the US egged on Russia to invade Ukraine, so that once the Russians had destroyed it, the Americans could make money out of rebuilding it?

What is your evidence?

War not air!

Perhaps look at the tanks as not so much about fighting the air, but as proving a defence. Personally - and I do know a bit more about this than in the msm - I know a peace deal isn’t going to happen soon. But hey, just let them die….

The only way that any war ends is with a peace agreement, there is no other solution that won't involve the whole of Europe in armageddon . The USA is egging on Zalensky simply because it wants control of the Ukraine and has been working towards that aim for years. Blackrock has already secured a " deal" to rebuild Ukraine after the war. This is exactly the same as they did in Iraq, it's all about the money as usual and big finance.
We need to stop supplying arms and force the start of a peace agreement before any more innocent people lose their lives just to line the pockets of the arms industry. Why do we never learn?

pascal30

grannyrebel7

I don't think we should support this war at all. I'm really anti war. I think we should spend the money on paying our nurses, doctors and railway workers a decent wage and recruiting more NHS staff.

I really agree... I think sending more weaponary escalates the war and potential for it including other countries. I feel so sorry for all those poor conscripted Russians.. it's an awful situation with an unstable despot like Putin.in control I can only hope that whoever eventually succeeds him will be willing to have peace talks..

So forget the senseless deaths of so many people just trying to continue their lives with some sense of normalcy. We are focussed on the Ukraine but many Russian are dying as well.
Sometimes action trumps principle.

Germany is keeping the Ukraine war at arms length or Russia will cut what gas it does supply.

It’s not just the USA that encouraged Ukraine to disregard the Minsk agreement(s) the EU had an even bigger part in encouraging the Orange Revolution. Of course Independance and freedom is the goal we should all support but at what price.
Despite early set backs Russia has achieved its aim, are we really going to supply enough arms to drive them out?.

grannyrebel7

I don't think we should support this war at all. I'm really anti war. I think we should spend the money on paying our nurses, doctors and railway workers a decent wage and recruiting more NHS staff.

I really agree... I think sending more weaponary escalates the war and potential for it including other countries. I feel so sorry for all those poor conscripted Russians.. it's an awful situation with an unstable despot like Putin.in control I can only hope that whoever eventually succeeds him will be willing to have peace talks..

Totally agree Farzanah I think we have done a lot and this could go on for many more years I would like to see more energy put into peace talks because this really seems to be going no where

Germany is not holding back with its Leopards - it’s not supplying them. To be able to supply Leopard tanks to Ukraine, Poland and Finland would have to re-export them and they need permission from Berlin to do that as they hold the export licence. It seems that the Germans have now said they will not block the move. And yes, the Ukrainians would prefer the Leopard, but they’re not going to turn their noses up at the Challenger or whatever it is that the French are offering them.

I am so concerned about the huge loss of life which is being suffered by Russians and Ukrainians.
War never seems a long term solution, and in modern times with nuclear capabilities there is a real danger in escalation
I wish there was more energy towards diplomacy and peace talks, than supplying arms.

I don't think we should support this war at all. I'm really anti war. I think we should spend the money on paying our nurses, doctors and railway workers a decent wage and recruiting more NHS staff.

Ukraine are not in NATO so we are not " partners", nor should they be, as that is what this war is partly about. The whole point of the Minsk agreement is that Ukraine stays a neutral buffer zone between east and west. The agreement being broken by Ukraine at the urging of the USA is a major factor in Russia invading in the first place.

Your, 'It would certainly up their game' made me wince, Grey as my fear is that it might make Putin raise his game too.
You know more about NATO than I do, but I did not think it was firmly advocating this further degree of intervention. If it is, why is Germany holding back with its Leopards?

There is no question of our not supporting Ukraine. I don't understand that response. The UK has rightly been giving considerable monetary and technical support to Ukraine all along. These proposals would ratchet that up to a potentially dangerous level, and prolong the war.

Surely a negotiated solution is the answer difficult tho that may seem at the moment.